Offseason trade/FA forum

[Lipoli390]

Johnson is an intriguing possibility. But if I have to choose, I'll take Vanderbilt for his overall talent and upside. Vanderbilt's shot is pretty bad and Johnson seems like the superior shooter/scorer. But Vanderbilt is actually a good ball-handler and passer. Watch some video of him from last season and you'll see those skills. And it's nothing new. The following was draft.net's review of Vanderbilt coming out of college and it praises his ball-handling and passing:

Strengths: Is the most dominant rebounder in his draft class, pulling down 25% of all available rebounds during his brief career at Kentucky ... Averaged 18.5 rebounds per 40 minutes in college ... Handles the ball extremely well for a player his size (6-9, 218 pounds) ... Passes the ball very well, is able to thread the needle as well as make the easy pass ... Has very good court vision, sees all 9 other players at all times ... Plays with a lot of intensity and passion, motor is not an issue ... Is capable of impacting a game even without taking a shot ... Can defend multiple positions, is able to rotate quickly and can make long closeouts to take away jump shots ... Has a 7'1" wingspan and 6.34% body fat ... Vertical jump was measured at 39.5" at Kentucky's pro day (though many of the measurements seemed inflated) ... Possesses good strength and his upper body is NBA ready ...

[Monster]

I think the wolves could get both Johnson and vando. I'm not sure how the waiver system works but Johnson is making the minimum so we could just claim him can't we? Then resign vando

Yes they could just claim him and it seems they would be at the top of the list. The problem is that assuming nothing else significant happens to the roster the Wolves may not be able to afford 15 contracts and stay under the luxury tax. It seems Bolmaro hasn't officially signed but it seems that's the expectation so then the Wolves would have less than 7 million under the luxury tax. They clearly want to bring back McLaughlin so that's another 1.7-2million. Alize salary is $1,762,796 so that would leave about 3.3 million they could give to Vanderbilt which leaves 2 problems.

1. Now a team could offer Vanderbilt a contract starting at 3.4 million or even 4 million or whatever small amount it would take for the Wolves to go over the tax and then the Wolves may have a tough decision. The reporting is that the Wolves have offered him 3 million but I would assume they would be willing to go a little higher. They wouldn't be able to go much higher if they added Alize to the guys they already have.

2. Let's say they get all those guys signed/ Alize claimed on Waivers and they are just under the tax. Great...what happens if there are a bunch of injuries and they could really use another player? They can't sign anyone without going over the tax. I'm guessing they want to avoid that type of scenario.

[FNG]

The Nets released Alize Johnson. Could he be a solid depth pickup for us? I don't know a ton about him but his efficiency numbers from last year look good and Brooklyn even gave him some playing time in the Milwaukee series.

My god, yes! This is the kind of player who is only available just because the Nets are so loaded. But think of him as a better version of Jarred Vanderbilt (and I love Vanderbilt, by the way). Have you seen this guy play? His measurements are not all that impressive, but he is a force out there. I think he had a 20/20 game last season (yep...just checked it. 20/21 with 2 blocks against Indy last April). I recognize he only played 10 MPG (on a very good team) but he averaged an absurd 18/17 per 36. Can he shoot? I don't know. But I do know he made all 13 free throws he took last year, so that has to mean something.

Sign his right away...he's a better, cheaper version of Vando.

He's no where near the defender that Jarred Vanderbilt is, but I too like Alize Johnson. I think it was monster that I had a conversation with on here about him as a guy I thought might get waived. He has a very crafty offensive game despite having a broken jumper. I'd much rather have Vanderbilt, but Johnson can definitely play. He won't be a free agent very long.

I really appreciated Vando's D last season, but Johnson is a tenacious defender too...although I agree Vando is probably superior on D. But I see Johnson as far superior offensively. Vando is really limited to putbacks and rim running, but Johnson has some actual offensive talent. He was one of those guys who was short early in HS and developed ballhandling skills, and then grew 7 inches. He can put the ball on the floor and distribute, and his 13 for 13 from the line last year shows that, unlike Vando, he can shoot a little. Durant raved about him last season. I like players like Vando and Johnson, but I'll take Johnson. Especially since he's not likely to demand as much money.

Here's a nice stat comparison:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=vandeja01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id1=johnsal02&p2yrfrom=2021&sum=0&request=1

FWIW Johnson did actually take a decent amount of 3's in college and also attempted and made them at a solid percentage in the G-league. He is a better FT shooter.

Really here are some differences between these guys:

1. Vanderbilt has more physical attributes that might help him be successful. He is just longer.

2. Vanderbilt is 3 years younger so there is theoretical upside.

3. The shooting prowess (or for Vanderbilt lack thereof) I mentioned before.

4. Completely different paths to the league. Johnson played 4 years of college basketball and 65 G-league games. He wasn't even a D1 guy. Dude has been grinding for everything he has gotten. Vanderbilt was a McDonalds all American. Before last season Vanderbilt might have played like maybe 90 total competitive games since HS and that includes college and summer league. Vanderbilt doesn't play like an entitled guy or anything like that but until this year where he did actually show some positive things he had played so little.

They have a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses so similar players. I'd rather have Vanderbilt and it should also be said that Alize hasn't played a lot in the NBA to be proven or anything like that. I'm guessing some team will end up signing him and could be quite pleased. Honestly if a good team needs a guy that just comes in and does some reasonably good stuff he could help.

All good points, monster and cam. But as much as I love Vando, Johnson actually has some basketball skills as opposed to just physical attributes. Vando has better size and might be a better defender, but Johnson can actually shoot and dribble, and is even a better rebounder than Vando. I'd be happy to have either one on my roster...they are the definition of a high motor player.

Vando can dribble also he used to be a PG too. Is Alize better now? Sure because again the guy has played a bunch more basketball.

So you want the guy that's a lesser defender and has offensive capability? What? Doesn't this team need all the defense they can get?

What we should actually be doing is comparing Alize to Nathan Knight because that's likely who he would be competing for minutes if he was signed here. If I was going off what I saw in Summer league only it would be Knight plus he is more of the type of player this roster needs in terms of size and length. He has a pretty diverse skill set too.

Meanwhile another similar player to Alize and Vanderbilt who is plenty capable of playing his butt off and defending and handling the ball some and has played on some good teams...26 year old RHJ aid a FA that anyone can sign right now. Dude can at times guard 4-5 positions if I was going to choose between him and Alize I would probably pick him.

What I am getting at here is there are small margins between various players and the Wolves already have a couple high motor guys that can play in the front court with some interesting skills but aren't proven. I'd be happy to pick up Alize but I'm not really going to be disappointed to not see him here.

Monster, in my opinion the difference on defense between these two enormously high motor guys is miniscule. Johnson actually has the better DRtg on Basketball Reference. I give the nod to Vando though, probably just because I've seen him more and like him. Can't help it...I'm a homer! But the difference on offense seems more significant to me. And as much as I love Vando on the boards, Johnson is a uniquely prolific rebounder. If you've watched him, you know what I mean. His 20/21 game (in just 30 minutes!) last season shows his upside.

I think there may be a belief here that Vando is a T-Wolf and we don't need another similar player. But I suspect the Wolves and Vando are not very close in their salary demands. Johnson's availability at a minimum gives the Wolves another option is they choose to hold the line on Vando. This is a good thing. As I said before, I'd be happy with either one of these guys as my BACKUP PF (cue the Ben Simmons threads!).

[Monster]

The Nets released Alize Johnson. Could he be a solid depth pickup for us? I don't know a ton about him but his efficiency numbers from last year look good and Brooklyn even gave him some playing time in the Milwaukee series.

My god, yes! This is the kind of player who is only available just because the Nets are so loaded. But think of him as a better version of Jarred Vanderbilt (and I love Vanderbilt, by the way). Have you seen this guy play? His measurements are not all that impressive, but he is a force out there. I think he had a 20/20 game last season (yep...just checked it. 20/21 with 2 blocks against Indy last April). I recognize he only played 10 MPG (on a very good team) but he averaged an absurd 18/17 per 36. Can he shoot? I don't know. But I do know he made all 13 free throws he took last year, so that has to mean something.

Sign his right away...he's a better, cheaper version of Vando.

He's no where near the defender that Jarred Vanderbilt is, but I too like Alize Johnson. I think it was monster that I had a conversation with on here about him as a guy I thought might get waived. He has a very crafty offensive game despite having a broken jumper. I'd much rather have Vanderbilt, but Johnson can definitely play. He won't be a free agent very long.

I really appreciated Vando's D last season, but Johnson is a tenacious defender too...although I agree Vando is probably superior on D. But I see Johnson as far superior offensively. Vando is really limited to putbacks and rim running, but Johnson has some actual offensive talent. He was one of those guys who was short early in HS and developed ballhandling skills, and then grew 7 inches. He can put the ball on the floor and distribute, and his 13 for 13 from the line last year shows that, unlike Vando, he can shoot a little. Durant raved about him last season. I like players like Vando and Johnson, but I'll take Johnson. Especially since he's not likely to demand as much money.

Here's a nice stat comparison:

https://stathead.com/basketball/pcm_finder.cgi?player_id2=vandeja01&p1yrfrom=2021&player_id1=johnsal02&p2yrfrom=2021&sum=0&request=1

FWIW Johnson did actually take a decent amount of 3's in college and also attempted and made them at a solid percentage in the G-league. He is a better FT shooter.

Really here are some differences between these guys:

1. Vanderbilt has more physical attributes that might help him be successful. He is just longer.

2. Vanderbilt is 3 years younger so there is theoretical upside.

3. The shooting prowess (or for Vanderbilt lack thereof) I mentioned before.

4. Completely different paths to the league. Johnson played 4 years of college basketball and 65 G-league games. He wasn't even a D1 guy. Dude has been grinding for everything he has gotten. Vanderbilt was a McDonalds all American. Before last season Vanderbilt might have played like maybe 90 total competitive games since HS and that includes college and summer league. Vanderbilt doesn't play like an entitled guy or anything like that but until this year where he did actually show some positive things he had played so little.

They have a lot of the same strengths and weaknesses so similar players. I'd rather have Vanderbilt and it should also be said that Alize hasn't played a lot in the NBA to be proven or anything like that. I'm guessing some team will end up signing him and could be quite pleased. Honestly if a good team needs a guy that just comes in and does some reasonably good stuff he could help.

All good points, monster and cam. But as much as I love Vando, Johnson actually has some basketball skills as opposed to just physical attributes. Vando has better size and might be a better defender, but Johnson can actually shoot and dribble, and is even a better rebounder than Vando. I'd be happy to have either one on my roster...they are the definition of a high motor player.

Vando can dribble also he used to be a PG too. Is Alize better now? Sure because again the guy has played a bunch more basketball.

So you want the guy that's a lesser defender and has offensive capability? What? Doesn't this team need all the defense they can get?

What we should actually be doing is comparing Alize to Nathan Knight because that's likely who he would be competing for minutes if he was signed here. If I was going off what I saw in Summer league only it would be Knight plus he is more of the type of player this roster needs in terms of size and length. He has a pretty diverse skill set too.

Meanwhile another similar player to Alize and Vanderbilt who is plenty capable of playing his butt off and defending and handling the ball some and has played on some good teams...26 year old RHJ aid a FA that anyone can sign right now. Dude can at times guard 4-5 positions if I was going to choose between him and Alize I would probably pick him.

What I am getting at here is there are small margins between various players and the Wolves already have a couple high motor guys that can play in the front court with some interesting skills but aren't proven. I'd be happy to pick up Alize but I'm not really going to be disappointed to not see him here.

Monster, in my opinion the difference on defense between these two enormously high motor guys is miniscule. Johnson actually has the better DRtg on Basketball Reference. I give the nod to Vando though, probably just because I've seen him more and like him. Can't help it...I'm a homer! But the difference on offense seems more significant to me. And as much as I love Vando on the boards, Johnson is a uniquely prolific rebounder. If you've watched him, you know what I mean. His 20/21 game (in just 30 minutes!) last season shows his upside.

I think there may be a belief here that Vando is a T-Wolf and we don't need another similar player. But I suspect the Wolves and Vando are not very close in their salary demands. Johnson's availability at a minimum gives the Wolves another option is they choose to hold the line on Vando. This is a good thing. As I said before, I'd be happy with either one of these guys as my BACKUP PF (cue the Ben Simmons threads!).

FNG to me it's not about what these guys are now but what they could be. Vanderbilt played the first significant amount of games and minutes since HS and actually did well. Will he reach another level? Maybe maybe not but there should be some promise there. Alize likely is what he is although it's possible he improves also.

I find it a little hard to take a player like Johnson's defensive rating too seriously with so few minutes. Meanwhile Vanderbilt actually started games and played what like 8x more minutes? Are you ignoring Alize's time in Indiana where he shot under 40%? How much have you seen Alize play?

[Lipoli390]

I'm with Monster in this Vando-Johnson debate. I know there's something called the homer syndrome that causes us to sometimes to overvalue our team's players. But there's also the grass-is-greener syndrome that often causes us to overvalue players on other teams. I think that latter syndrome is driving some of the thinking in this debate. Johnson's limited minutes last season don't provide a particularly solid basis for evaluating him. At the same time, there seems to be a false impression that Vando is just a high-energy rebounder who is otherwise unskilled. Truth is, he's a good ball-handler and passer as well. I attribute that false impression to a condition called reverse-homer syndrome, which results in a tendency to focus myopically on a players key strengths and overlook others strengths or focus too intensely on his weaknesses.

OK, I've way over-analyzed this. :). I just prefer Vando.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Jarred Vanderbilt is 22, bigger, faster, more athletic, more proven at the NBA level based on sheer playing time, and we're familiar with how his game positively impacts the other players already on the roster. I say this while acknowledging that I like Alize Johnson and noted him by name as an intriguing player that could get waived before the start of the season.

My thought process wouldn't be to replace Vanderbilt with him. Should there be an open roster spot after another Minnesota trade and he's available, then I think he's a worthwhile candidate for it. Some others include:

- Isaiah Hartenstein (Cleveland, UFA)
- Garrison Mathews (Washington, UFA)

- Harry Giles (Portland, UFA)
- Armoni Brooks (Houston, Exhibit 10)
- Alize Johnson (Brooklyn, UFA)

- Reggie Perry (Brooklyn, UFA)
- Aamir Simms (New York, Exhibit 10)

- Dennis Smith Jr. (Portland)*
- Tyler Bey (Houston)*

*denotes players on my original list who were signed.

[Monster]

I'm with Monster in this Vando-Johnson debate. I know there's something called the homer syndrome that causes us to sometimes to overvalue our team's players. But there's also the grass-is-greener syndrome that often causes us to overvalue players on other teams. I think that latter syndrome is driving some of the thinking in this debate. Johnson's limited minutes last season don't provide a particularly solid basis for evaluating him. At the same time, there seems to be a false impression that Vando is just a high-energy rebounder who is otherwise unskilled. Truth is, he's a good ball-handler and passer as well. I attribute that false impression to a condition called reverse-homer syndrome, which results in a tendency to focus myopically on a players key strengths and overlook others strengths or focus too intensely on his weaknesses.

OK, I've way over-analyzed this. :). I just prefer Vando.

Good post Lip.

Just to be clear I would like to add Alize Johnson to the roster as I do like him. I would also like to add Isaiah Hartenstein or RHJ or maybe even Josh Jackson if he was waived or...the list goes on if guys I would have interest in having as the 15th player on this roster but the reality is that if the Wolves make no other moves adding a 15th player probably isn't going to happen at this point because of the Luxury tax. With that in mind I certainly don't see adding a guy that's really similar to Vanderbilt as I would rather add someone that brings something different to the roster...and my preference at this point would be someone with legit size. I wouldn't turn down anyone I thought had some legit talent though.

Jabari Parker would be intriguing but if Boston basically picks Juancho over him then...um maybe not.

[Lipoli390]

I'm with Monster in this Vando-Johnson debate. I know there's something called the homer syndrome that causes us to sometimes to overvalue our team's players. But there's also the grass-is-greener syndrome that often causes us to overvalue players on other teams. I think that latter syndrome is driving some of the thinking in this debate. Johnson's limited minutes last season don't provide a particularly solid basis for evaluating him. At the same time, there seems to be a false impression that Vando is just a high-energy rebounder who is otherwise unskilled. Truth is, he's a good ball-handler and passer as well. I attribute that false impression to a condition called reverse-homer syndrome, which results in a tendency to focus myopically on a players key strengths and overlook others strengths or focus too intensely on his weaknesses.

OK, I've way over-analyzed this. :). I just prefer Vando.

Good post Lip.

Just to be clear I would like to add Alize Johnson to the roster as I do like him. I would also like to add Isaiah Hartenstein or RHJ or maybe even Josh Jackson if he was waived or...the list goes on if guys I would have interest in having as the 15th player on this roster but the reality is that if the Wolves make no other moves adding a 15th player probably isn't going to happen at this point because of the Luxury tax. With that in mind I certainly don't see adding a guy that's really similar to Vanderbilt as I would rather add someone that brings something different to the roster...and my preference at this point would be someone with legit size. I wouldn't turn down anyone I thought had some legit talent though.

Jabari Parker would be intriguing but if Boston basically picks Juancho over him then...um maybe not.

I agree, Monster. I too would like to add any of the guys you listed as the 15th member of our roster, including Alize Johnson. But you're spot on about the luxury tax barrier.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Monta Ellis worked out for the Rockets this week. Shams and Jon K reported earlier this week that he worked out in Dallas. That's a blast from the past.

[Lipoli390]

Monta Ellis worked out for the Rockets this week. Shams and Jon K reported earlier this week that he worked out in Dallas. That's a blast from the past.

I haven't thought about that guy in a long time. He was a pretty exciting player back in his day.