In the end, Miami ended up trading Josh Richardson, Whiteside and a future 1st (probably lottery-protected but I'm not sure) for Butler and change. Reports we all read last season said that the Heat made a similar offer to the Wolves - Josh Richardson, Waiters and a 1st round pick. I suspect the Wolves could have gotten a bit more because of the value in getting Waiters off their books and the value of getting Butler to help them last season. But if it were just Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 pick top 10 protected, would you have preferred that to what we got (Covington and Saric)?
The more interesting question to me is what we might have gotten from Philly instead of Covington and Saric in light of what Philly gave up later for Tobias. My sense is that we could have gotten what the Clippers got for Tobias, but Thibodeau was all about trying to win last season rather than build for the future. Would you rather have Shamet, Chandler, Muscala and Miami's 2020 unprotected 1st? I know I would.
The Miami-Philly Butler Deal and What Might Have Been
Re: The Miami-Philly Butler Deal and What Might Have Been
lipoli390 wrote:In the end, Miami ended up trading Josh Richardson, Whiteside and a future 1st (probably lottery-protected but I'm not sure) for Butler and change. Reports we all read last season said that the Heat made a similar offer to the Wolves - Josh Richardson, Waiters and a 1st round pick. I suspect the Wolves could have gotten a bit more because of the value in getting Waiters off their books and the value of getting Butler to help them last season. But if it were just Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 pick top 10 protected, would you have preferred that to what we got (Covington and Saric)?
The more interesting question to me is what we might have gotten from Philly instead of Covington and Saric in light of what Philly gave up later for Tobias. My sense is that we could have gotten what the Clippers got for Tobias, but Thibodeau was all about trying to win last season rather than build for the future. Would you rather have Shamet, Chandler, Muscala and Miami's 2020 unprotected 1st? I know I would.
Worth remembering that The Covington Saric deal meant they stayed under the Luxury tax last year and this year. That's not a small thing.
Re: The Miami-Philly Butler Deal and What Might Have Been
monsterpile wrote:lipoli390 wrote:In the end, Miami ended up trading Josh Richardson, Whiteside and a future 1st (probably lottery-protected but I'm not sure) for Butler and change. Reports we all read last season said that the Heat made a similar offer to the Wolves - Josh Richardson, Waiters and a 1st round pick. I suspect the Wolves could have gotten a bit more because of the value in getting Waiters off their books and the value of getting Butler to help them last season. But if it were just Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 pick top 10 protected, would you have preferred that to what we got (Covington and Saric)?
The more interesting question to me is what we might have gotten from Philly instead of Covington and Saric in light of what Philly gave up later for Tobias. My sense is that we could have gotten what the Clippers got for Tobias, but Thibodeau was all about trying to win last season rather than build for the future. Would you rather have Shamet, Chandler, Muscala and Miami's 2020 unprotected 1st? I know I would.
Worth remembering that The Covington Saric deal meant they stayed under the Luxury tax last year and this year. That's not a small thing.
You mean the Sixers? If so, that's a good point. But then how about Covington and Shamet but not the pick? Or Covington and the unprotected pick but not Shamet? Just an interesting question.
But I don't want to spend too much time looking back at what I consider to be Thibodeau's failures. I'm just thrilled to see Rosas do things the right way. Even though I've disagreed with some of his moves so far, I like his overall approach and direction. My only significant disagreement so far have just been his draft decision to take trade Saric and take Culver rather than trade Covington and get Garland. But I at least see Gersson's logic in weighing the value of Covington (defense and 3-point shooting) as well as Culver's all-around potential.
Re: The Miami-Philly Butler Deal and What Might Have Been
lipoli390 wrote:monsterpile wrote:lipoli390 wrote:In the end, Miami ended up trading Josh Richardson, Whiteside and a future 1st (probably lottery-protected but I'm not sure) for Butler and change. Reports we all read last season said that the Heat made a similar offer to the Wolves - Josh Richardson, Waiters and a 1st round pick. I suspect the Wolves could have gotten a bit more because of the value in getting Waiters off their books and the value of getting Butler to help them last season. But if it were just Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 pick top 10 protected, would you have preferred that to what we got (Covington and Saric)?
The more interesting question to me is what we might have gotten from Philly instead of Covington and Saric in light of what Philly gave up later for Tobias. My sense is that we could have gotten what the Clippers got for Tobias, but Thibodeau was all about trying to win last season rather than build for the future. Would you rather have Shamet, Chandler, Muscala and Miami's 2020 unprotected 1st? I know I would.
Worth remembering that The Covington Saric deal meant they stayed under the Luxury tax last year and this year. That's not a small thing.
You mean the Sixers? If so, that's a good point. But then how about Covington and Shamet but not the pick? Or Covington and the unprotected pick but not Shamet? Just an interesting question.
But I don't want to spend too much time looking back at what I consider to be Thibodeau's failures. I'm just thrilled to see Rosas do things the right way. Even though I've disagreed with some of his moves so far, I like his overall approach and direction. My only significant disagreement so far have just been his draft decision to take trade Saric and take Culver rather than trade Covington and get Garland. But I at least see Gersson's logic in weighing the value of Covington (defense and 3-point shooting) as well as Culver's all-around potential.
I meant taking the Saric Covington deal over any of the possible Heat deals.
Just for fun and ONLY live in the hypothetical for a moment. Let's say we traded up to 6 and we got Garland. If you feel like Garland is gonna be the next Lillard or player of that level and he turned out to be that good. You could almost say the Butler deal was a win in and of itself because it got you a franchise PG. that didn't happen and of course I they wanted to move up they could have included some other asset but yeah. The Wolves already cashed in one asset from that trade and we now wait and see if it was worth it. Covington is still a very good asset whether we keep him or eventually move him. If the Wolves are actually smart they will end up with some young players we like as much as what was moved around in various deals that you spoke of. Rosas looks like he is going development mode and getting solid not old players for cheap like I think makes a lot of sense to do. Letting go of Cam Reynolds is the only head scratcher. Treveon Graham is a somewhat similar player with 3 years of NBA experience so...ok. My point is that it feels like Rosas is pivoting to a plan that makes sense to me which is really encouraging.
Re: The Miami-Philly Butler Deal and What Might Have Been
monsterpile wrote:lipoli390 wrote:monsterpile wrote:lipoli390 wrote:In the end, Miami ended up trading Josh Richardson, Whiteside and a future 1st (probably lottery-protected but I'm not sure) for Butler and change. Reports we all read last season said that the Heat made a similar offer to the Wolves - Josh Richardson, Waiters and a 1st round pick. I suspect the Wolves could have gotten a bit more because of the value in getting Waiters off their books and the value of getting Butler to help them last season. But if it were just Richardson, Waiters and Miami's 2019 pick top 10 protected, would you have preferred that to what we got (Covington and Saric)?
The more interesting question to me is what we might have gotten from Philly instead of Covington and Saric in light of what Philly gave up later for Tobias. My sense is that we could have gotten what the Clippers got for Tobias, but Thibodeau was all about trying to win last season rather than build for the future. Would you rather have Shamet, Chandler, Muscala and Miami's 2020 unprotected 1st? I know I would.
Worth remembering that The Covington Saric deal meant they stayed under the Luxury tax last year and this year. That's not a small thing.
You mean the Sixers? If so, that's a good point. But then how about Covington and Shamet but not the pick? Or Covington and the unprotected pick but not Shamet? Just an interesting question.
But I don't want to spend too much time looking back at what I consider to be Thibodeau's failures. I'm just thrilled to see Rosas do things the right way. Even though I've disagreed with some of his moves so far, I like his overall approach and direction. My only significant disagreement so far have just been his draft decision to take trade Saric and take Culver rather than trade Covington and get Garland. But I at least see Gersson's logic in weighing the value of Covington (defense and 3-point shooting) as well as Culver's all-around potential.
I meant taking the Saric Covington deal over any of the possible Heat deals.
Just for fun and ONLY live in the hypothetical for a moment. Let's say we traded up to 6 and we got Garland. If you feel like Garland is gonna be the next Lillard or player of that level and he turned out to be that good. You could almost say the Butler deal was a win in and of itself because it got you a franchise PG. that didn't happen and of course I they wanted to move up they could have included some other asset but yeah. The Wolves already cashed in one asset from that trade and we now wait and see if it was worth it. Covington is still a very good asset whether we keep him or eventually move him. If the Wolves are actually smart they will end up with some young players we like as much as what was moved around in various deals that you spoke of. Rosas looks like he is going development mode and getting solid not old players for cheap like I think makes a lot of sense to do. Letting go of Cam Reynolds is the only head scratcher. Treveon Graham is a somewhat similar player with 3 years of NBA experience so...ok. My point is that it feels like Rosas is pivoting to a plan that makes sense to me which is really encouraging.
Good points. I agree with you on the pivot. It's encouraging. Now let's hope one of these young guys pans out.
Re: The Miami-Philly Butler Deal and What Might Have Been
I like that we got Cov and Saric back in the trade. I think Cov is the best player in that trade and I think Richarson is overrated (although very solid), we would be still stuck with Waiters and possibly Olynk and a lotto protected 1st (all reports were it was lotto protected.) The Heat didn't make the playoffs and there was a chance that 1st round pick would of been a conveyed into a 2nd round pick. Would they made it with Jimmy I would of guessed yes but who knows with his injury history.
If you blame Taylor on the majority of the non forward thinking moves that the Wolves made at the beginning of last season. If Taylor didn't want to bring Thibs back after making the playoffs he should of fired him. Instead Taylor let the Thibs/Butler thing fester into the season. Where I can see it from Thibs view that he has to win to keep his job and if he doesn't win he will struggle finding a head coaching job again.
If Taylor did what he wanted to do in the offseason and fire Thibs we could be looking at a team with a lot more assets right now. But he didn't.
I will say I am happy Thibs never gave up picks without at least getting one back (the Jimmy pick) we still have every pick asset moving forward what is huge moving forward.
So in conclusion do I think the Wolves could of gotten more value if Thibs was fired before the season, I think that is a yes. Do I blame Thibs for trying to make win now moves when his job is on the line, nope. And at least we got Cov who is a nice asset on a good contract and Saric who had enough value to move up 5 spots in the Lottory.
If you blame Taylor on the majority of the non forward thinking moves that the Wolves made at the beginning of last season. If Taylor didn't want to bring Thibs back after making the playoffs he should of fired him. Instead Taylor let the Thibs/Butler thing fester into the season. Where I can see it from Thibs view that he has to win to keep his job and if he doesn't win he will struggle finding a head coaching job again.
If Taylor did what he wanted to do in the offseason and fire Thibs we could be looking at a team with a lot more assets right now. But he didn't.
I will say I am happy Thibs never gave up picks without at least getting one back (the Jimmy pick) we still have every pick asset moving forward what is huge moving forward.
So in conclusion do I think the Wolves could of gotten more value if Thibs was fired before the season, I think that is a yes. Do I blame Thibs for trying to make win now moves when his job is on the line, nope. And at least we got Cov who is a nice asset on a good contract and Saric who had enough value to move up 5 spots in the Lottory.