OT - The USA Today

[SameOldNudityDrew]

D-Loser, I'm not trying to tell anybody what to think or say. I'm trying to make sure the discussion has a focus. I think any constructive discussion should have a focus or it risks careening from one unrelated topic to the next. As I said, if there's anything you want to discuss that bears on the question of whether or not these elections were stolen, let's talk about it in monster's thread. But for the purposes of having as constructive a discussion as possible, I think we should save topics not related to the election for other threads/conversations in the general page. I might be interested in joining those too.

[FNG]

I love a good political discussion. It seems odd to have this kind of discussion on a board I assume most of us come to for the purpose of getting AWAY from this pervasive kind of discussion, but I'll bite on the issue of the integrity of the election.

I'm going to paraphrase Abe Lincoln here with a quote I try to live by every day: "I'm a better person when I consider the possibility that the other person might actually be right". So, for the past couple months I have listened to, and tried to understand the veracity of, the claims of Trump and his supporters that the election was rigged and stolen. In the end though it seems to come down to what do you choose to believe: conspiracy theories thrown out there by bizarre groups like QAnon (hmm...was Hillary Clinton really using that pizza parlor to operate a child pornography ring?) and a president who has proven to be a shockingly immature poor loser, or the conclusions of the institutions of what I believe to be the greatest country in the world...our hard-working election officials, our justice department, and our courts (many judges of which were appointed in the past 4 years by the same losing candidate who has asked them to reverse the outcome of the election with no reasonable evidence).

The choice for me is easy...I carefully review the evidence and ultimately reject the unfounded conspiracy theories and instead choose to believe the conclusions of America's institutions, which are admittedly not perfect, but in my opinion by far the best in the world. I agree with Drew that it must be enormously painful to support a candidate and to really believe that your candidate was cheated and the election stolen from him/her. But I can't imagine having so little faith in the institutions in the country I lived in that I categorically rejected the conclusions of those institutions in favor of unsupported conspiracy theories.

I'm not trying to go full "America...love it or leave it" here. But I honestly wonder why dissidents who have no faith in the institutions of this country would want to continue to live here? I don't think I could do it. It's a big world out there with many options for countries to live in where you might be more comfortable with the governing institutions, many of which have governing philosophies markedly different from the USA. If the answer is you choose to live here because you're trying to change it dramatically from within, good luck...our Constitution is the oldest one in the world, and not likely to change much. Would it not be easier and less painful to just choose another country whose government and institutions you could more easily believe in and support?

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

I love a good political discussion. It seems odd to have this kind of discussion on a board I assume most of us come to for the purpose of getting AWAY from this pervasive kind of discussion, but I'll bite on the issue of the integrity of the election.

I'm going to paraphrase Abe Lincoln here with a quote I try to live by every day: "I'm a better person when I consider the possibility that the other person might actually be right". So, for the past couple months I have listened to, and tried to understand the veracity of, the claims of Trump and his supporters that the election was rigged and stolen. In the end though it seems to come down to what do you choose to believe: conspiracy theories thrown out there by bizarre groups like QAnon (hmm...was Hillary Clinton really using that pizza parlor to operate a child pornography ring?) and a president who has proven to be a shockingly immature poor loser, or the conclusions of the institutions of what I believe to be the greatest country in the world...our hard-working election officials, our justice department, and our courts (many judges of which were appointed in the past 4 years by the same losing candidate who has asked them to reverse the outcome of the election with no reasonable evidence).

The choice for me is easy...I carefully review the evidence and ultimately reject the unfounded conspiracy theories and instead choose to believe the conclusions of America's institutions, which are admittedly not perfect, but in my opinion by far the best in the world. I agree with Drew that it must be enormously painful to support a candidate and to really believe that your candidate was cheated and the election stolen from him/her. But I can't imagine having so little faith in the institutions in the country I lived in that I categorically rejected the conclusions of those institutions in favor of unsupported conspiracy theories.

I'm not trying to go full "America...love it or leave it" here. But I honestly wonder why dissidents who have no faith in the institutions of this country would want to continue to live here? I don't think I could do it. It's a big world out there with many options for countries to live in where you might be more comfortable with the governing institutions, many of which have governing philosophies markedly different from the USA. If the answer is you choose to live here because you're trying to change it dramatically from within, good luck...our Constitution is the oldest one in the world, and not likely to change much. Would it not be easier and less painful to just choose another country whose government and institutions you could more easily believe in and support?

Dude, it's not about trump it's about supporting full blown socialism... I'll keep this short so you can try to focus on just grasping that. I'm honestly shocked by the intelligent people out there that just don't get that. Yeah ok, I along with the other 70 million "dissidents" should leave because I don't want to abandon the constitution and open the borders for full blown socialism. Wow. I lol at how you and others still label all of these things as conspiracy theories.

[Monster]

I love a good political discussion. It seems odd to have this kind of discussion on a board I assume most of us come to for the purpose of getting AWAY from this pervasive kind of discussion, but I'll bite on the issue of the integrity of the election.

I'm going to paraphrase Abe Lincoln here with a quote I try to live by every day: "I'm a better person when I consider the possibility that the other person might actually be right". So, for the past couple months I have listened to, and tried to understand the veracity of, the claims of Trump and his supporters that the election was rigged and stolen. In the end though it seems to come down to what do you choose to believe: conspiracy theories thrown out there by bizarre groups like QAnon (hmm...was Hillary Clinton really using that pizza parlor to operate a child pornography ring?) and a president who has proven to be a shockingly immature poor loser, or the conclusions of the institutions of what I believe to be the greatest country in the world...our hard-working election officials, our justice department, and our courts (many judges of which were appointed in the past 4 years by the same losing candidate who has asked them to reverse the outcome of the election with no reasonable evidence).

The choice for me is easy...I carefully review the evidence and ultimately reject the unfounded conspiracy theories and instead choose to believe the conclusions of America's institutions, which are admittedly not perfect, but in my opinion by far the best in the world. I agree with Drew that it must be enormously painful to support a candidate and to really believe that your candidate was cheated and the election stolen from him/her. But I can't imagine having so little faith in the institutions in the country I lived in that I categorically rejected the conclusions of those institutions in favor of unsupported conspiracy theories.

I'm not trying to go full "America...love it or leave it" here. But I honestly wonder why dissidents who have no faith in the institutions of this country would want to continue to live here? I don't think I could do it. It's a big world out there with many options for countries to live in where you might be more comfortable with the governing institutions, many of which have governing philosophies markedly different from the USA. If the answer is you choose to live here because you're trying to change it dramatically from within, good luck...our Constitution is the oldest one in the world, and not likely to change much. Would it not be easier and less painful to just choose another country whose government and institutions you could more easily believe in and support?

Dude, it's not about trump it's about supporting full blown socialism... I'll keep this short so you can try to focus on just grasping that. I'm honestly shocked by the intelligent people out there that just don't get that. Yeah ok, I along with the other 70 million "dissidents" should leave because I don't want to abandon the constitution and open the borders for full blown socialism. Wow. I lol at how you and others still label all of these things as conspiracy theories.

What is your definition of socialism?

[FNG]

D Loser, Monster asks you for a definition of socialism, and I can provide one...because most people with a rudimentary background in economics recognize it is widely misunderstood and misused by the far right. Socialism is an economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. I fail to see how that socialism as I learned about it in school has any relevance in our country's political discussion. (I note that you cite open borders as an example of this socialism you fear, so perhaps you have a different definition...I'm open to hearing it). Republicans and Democrats have differences to be sure, but if you read the position papers of most candidates, they are not that far off, and certainly no serious candidate with a widespread acceptance advocates for an economic system that is totally owned by the community. Come on now...we are a capitalistic country and always will be! The widespread talk of socialism I heard during the Georgia Senate runoff demonstrates a peculiar understanding of basic economics, and was perhaps one of the reasons the candidates who lost the runoff were rejected by a voting group that has been red for decades.

And the reason most Americans dismiss the theories of the far right (and by the way, I dismiss the far left with equal disdain. I am no fan of our Congresswoman Ilhan Omar- I frankly find her dangerous) as baseless conspiracy theories is that they are almost never supported by any facts. Yes, the Holocaust did happen. Yes, we did land on the moon. Yes, the earth is indeed not flat. No, 9/11 was not an act of the US Government, but rather a heinous act by rabid Muslim terrorists. No, Hillary Clinton did not operate a child sex ring out of a pizza parlor. And no, there was no widespread fraud in the 2020 presidential election. I honestly can't imagine choosing to live in a country that I considered so untrustworthy...I would be out of here tomorrow and never look back if I shared those views.

But that's just me...I may be wrong.

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

I love a good political discussion. It seems odd to have this kind of discussion on a board I assume most of us come to for the purpose of getting AWAY from this pervasive kind of discussion, but I'll bite on the issue of the integrity of the election.

I'm going to paraphrase Abe Lincoln here with a quote I try to live by every day: "I'm a better person when I consider the possibility that the other person might actually be right". So, for the past couple months I have listened to, and tried to understand the veracity of, the claims of Trump and his supporters that the election was rigged and stolen. In the end though it seems to come down to what do you choose to believe: conspiracy theories thrown out there by bizarre groups like QAnon (hmm...was Hillary Clinton really using that pizza parlor to operate a child pornography ring?) and a president who has proven to be a shockingly immature poor loser, or the conclusions of the institutions of what I believe to be the greatest country in the world...our hard-working election officials, our justice department, and our courts (many judges of which were appointed in the past 4 years by the same losing candidate who has asked them to reverse the outcome of the election with no reasonable evidence).

The choice for me is easy...I carefully review the evidence and ultimately reject the unfounded conspiracy theories and instead choose to believe the conclusions of America's institutions, which are admittedly not perfect, but in my opinion by far the best in the world. I agree with Drew that it must be enormously painful to support a candidate and to really believe that your candidate was cheated and the election stolen from him/her. But I can't imagine having so little faith in the institutions in the country I lived in that I categorically rejected the conclusions of those institutions in favor of unsupported conspiracy theories.

I'm not trying to go full "America...love it or leave it" here. But I honestly wonder why dissidents who have no faith in the institutions of this country would want to continue to live here? I don't think I could do it. It's a big world out there with many options for countries to live in where you might be more comfortable with the governing institutions, many of which have governing philosophies markedly different from the USA. If the answer is you choose to live here because you're trying to change it dramatically from within, good luck...our Constitution is the oldest one in the world, and not likely to change much. Would it not be easier and less painful to just choose another country whose government and institutions you could more easily believe in and support?

Dude, it's not about trump it's about supporting full blown socialism... I'll keep this short so you can try to focus on just grasping that. I'm honestly shocked by the intelligent people out there that just don't get that. Yeah ok, I along with the other 70 million "dissidents" should leave because I don't want to abandon the constitution and open the borders for full blown socialism. Wow. I lol at how you and others still label all of these things as conspiracy theories.

What is your definition of socialism?

My definition? It seems like you're asking me if I really understand what the word means... in a nice way... thanks :) I think we've been moving more toward it, without actually calling it that for a while (more in some states than others). Obviously it's equal compensation for all members of society, regardless of your job or if you have one. I'm sure there's tons of exceptions to any "socialist" government for the special people. It's been proven over and over again to fail throughout history because it destroys incentive, but yet people who think with their hearts instead of their brain continue to support it. World socialism is the plan, but to achieve it, the elites had to destroy the last remaining democracy. That's why they pulled out all the stops in 2020... they've been growing inpatient over the last few decades especially after they thought they had it in 2016. Also, they knew that American still wouldn't be able to elect an openly socialist candidate, which is why they needed to use a "moderate" as their Trojan horse. However, Americans still wouldn't vote to destroy their national sovereignty... so that's when they needed to steal the election. So in conclusion, combining socialism (or socialist policies) with open borders is the fastest way to destroy a country from within. China and the world elites never even had to fire a shot to win this war.

[FNG]

D-loser, it sounds like your primary definition of socialism is equal compensation for all members of society, and I would agree that is an element of it. But that then begs the question: if equal compensation is the goal of socialism and you say we are moving closer to it, why is the gap between the very wealthy and the very poor getting wider and wider every year. Why does the net worth of billionaires continue to skyrocket (even during Covid) while real wages adjusted for inflation have barely increased in decades. Sounds like if we're moving toward socialism, we're doing a really lousy job of it!

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

D Loser, Monster asks you for a definition of socialism, and I can provide one...because most people with a rudimentary background in economics recognize it is widely misunderstood and misused by the far right. Socialism is an economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. I fail to see how that socialism as I learned about it in school has any relevance in our country's political discussion. (I note that you cite open borders as an example of this socialism you fear, so perhaps you have a different definition...I'm open to hearing it). Republicans and Democrats have differences to be sure, but if you read the position papers of most candidates, they are not that far off, and certainly no serious candidate with a widespread acceptance advocates for an economic system that is totally owned by the community. Come on now...we are a capitalistic country and always will be! The widespread talk of socialism I heard during the Georgia Senate runoff demonstrates a peculiar understanding of basic economics, and was perhaps one of the reasons the candidates who lost the runoff were rejected by a voting group that has been red for decades.

And the reason most Americans dismiss the theories of the far right (and by the way, I dismiss the far left with equal disdain. I am no fan of our Congresswoman Ilhan Omar- I frankly find her dangerous) as baseless conspiracy theories is that they are almost never supported by any facts. Yes, the Holocaust did happen. Yes, we did land on the moon. Yes, the earth is indeed not flat. No, 9/11 was not an act of the US Government, but rather a heinous act by rabid Muslim terrorists. No, Hillary Clinton did not operate a child sex ring out of a pizza parlor. And no, there was no widespread fraud in the 2020 presidential election. I honestly can't imagine choosing to live in a country that I considered so untrustworthy...I would be out of here tomorrow and never look back if I shared those views.

But that's just me...I may be wrong.

Don't take this the wrong way, because you seem pretty smart, but you seem just a tad naive too. All of those "conspiracy theories" that you just listed at the end as being definitively false are all pretty likely to be true or have "some truth" to them. Also, am I hearing you say that you trust the government and you would leave if you didn't? I think most of us know by now that no matter what side you're on, you can't do that :) Unfortunately, I completely disagree with your statement that we'll always being a capitalist country. This election was different than any we've ever had because it was for our national sovereignty.

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

D-loser, it sounds like your primary definition of socialism is equal compensation for all members of society, and I would agree that is an element of it. But that then begs the question: if equal compensation is the goal of socialism and you say we are moving closer to it, why is the gap between the very wealthy and the very poor getting wider and wider every year. Why does the net worth of billionaires continue to skyrocket (even during Covid) while real wages adjusted for inflation have barely increased in decades. Sounds like if we're moving toward socialism, we're doing a really lousy job of it!

That's why I said there are always exceptions. Socialism is just socialism for the masses... the 99% or whatever. I have a pretty good job, but I think one day soon my compensation will be the same as someone who just came in illegally. Is that what you want FNG? Because I fear that that's what you voted for (intentionally or not). I appreciate the discussion with you all.

[FNG]

But D-Loser, if we

D Loser, Monster asks you for a definition of socialism, and I can provide one...because most people with a rudimentary background in economics recognize it is widely misunderstood and misused by the far right. Socialism is an economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole. I fail to see how that socialism as I learned about it in school has any relevance in our country's political discussion. (I note that you cite open borders as an example of this socialism you fear, so perhaps you have a different definition...I'm open to hearing it). Republicans and Democrats have differences to be sure, but if you read the position papers of most candidates, they are not that far off, and certainly no serious candidate with a widespread acceptance advocates for an economic system that is totally owned by the community. Come on now...we are a capitalistic country and always will be! The widespread talk of socialism I heard during the Georgia Senate runoff demonstrates a peculiar understanding of basic economics, and was perhaps one of the reasons the candidates who lost the runoff were rejected by a voting group that has been red for decades.

And the reason most Americans dismiss the theories of the far right (and by the way, I dismiss the far left with equal disdain. I am no fan of our Congresswoman Ilhan Omar- I frankly find her dangerous) as baseless conspiracy theories is that they are almost never supported by any facts. Yes, the Holocaust did happen. Yes, we did land on the moon. Yes, the earth is indeed not flat. No, 9/11 was not an act of the US Government, but rather a heinous act by rabid Muslim terrorists. No, Hillary Clinton did not operate a child sex ring out of a pizza parlor. And no, there was no widespread fraud in the 2020 presidential election. I honestly can't imagine choosing to live in a country that I considered so untrustworthy...I would be out of here tomorrow and never look back if I shared those views.

But that's just me...I may be wrong.

Don't take this the wrong way, because you seem pretty smart, but you seem just a tad naive too. All of those "conspiracy theories" that you just listed at the end as being definitively false are all pretty likely to be true or have "some truth" to them. Also, am I hearing you say that you trust the government and you would leave if you didn't? I think most of us know by now that no matter what side you're on, you can't do that :) Unfortunately, I completely disagree with your statement that we'll always being a capitalist country. This election was different than any we've ever had because it was for our national sovereignty.

Well, I'm not that smart ;-). But the board's resident naive guy heard the same gloom and doom talk in 2008 when that socialist from Kenya was elected president. But what happened the next 8 years? We got out of a horrible recession and capitalism reigned for all 8 years. The stock market nearly tripled, corporate profits skyrocketed and the rich got richer and richer (um, the middle class-not so much) And my memory is a little foggy, but it seems to me the president-elect might have been somewhere near the White House as corporations flourished and the stock market soared. Now Biden has been elected, and I'm hearing the same refrain. "Ah, we were just kidding with Obama...he really wasn't a socialist. But this Biden guy...he's going to destroy the country!" Meanwhile the same people who are fearing Biden will destroy the country are simultaneously criticizing the President-elect for putting a lot of Obama retreads in his cabinet. I guess I just don't get it. If Biden is looking to a lot of the same advisors Obama used during his 8 years and the rich kept getting richer during those 8 years, how are we moving closer to your definition of socialism where the wealth is shared equally again?