OT - The USA Today

[Wolvesfan21]

In February 1976, Director George H. W. Bush announced an even more restrictive policy: "effective immediately, CIA will not enter into any paid or contractual relationship with any full-time or part-time news correspondent accredited by any U.S. news service, newspaper, periodical, radio or television network or station."[11]

Do you think George H.W. Bush kept his promise and not to pay to spread propaganda any longer after 1976?

How is the CIA INVOLVED IN CREATING THE NEWS YOU SEE TODAY?

[SameOldNudityDrew]

WolvesFan 21, I'm not sure how the quotes you've cited or the excerpt about the CIA (source?) are relevant to the issue Cool has raised here. I read your earlier post suggesting that basically all elections are fraudulent, but let's focus on the ones Cool has highlighted here, the presidential election and the Georgia senatorial elections this year.

One way to think about an issue is to ask yourself what evidence, if it existed, would change your mind. For me, since I believe these elections were legit, one bit of evidence that might change my mind would be if there were clear video evidence of election counters intentionally destroying many ballots that they suspected would go for Trump. This would have to be video of these ballots being destroyed before the ballots themselves were first received, because they count all the ballots they have first, then open them and see who the votes were for. So if someone destroyed ballots for Trump after opening them and seeing who the ballots were for, the count would have been off and it would have triggered red flags. Video evidence is always tricky because it can easily take something out of context, so this video evidence would have to really be contextualized somehow. It should be clear who, when, and what exactly was happening and it should fit the description above. I've seen some random clips that purport to show this, but all of those I've seen have really been pulled out of context.

Another thing that might change my mind would be if longtime, legitimate nonpartisan election organizers who were heavily involved in the election testify that they witnessed, investigated, and discovered evidence of widespread voter fraud in their state. If the people running these elections produced legitimate official paperwork showing a significantly higher number of ballots were taken in than the ultimate number of votes, that might indicate that someone was destroying ballots after opening them. The fact that even Republican officials who oversaw these elections like Brad Raffensperger in Georgia https://apnews.com/article/trump-raffensperger-phone-call-georgia-d503c8b4e58f7cd648fbf9a746131ec9say that it didn't happen is strong evidence to me that there was no fraud. But if an unbiased official who managed or was heavily involved in these elections came out with evidence they were fraudulent, I would take that as evidence in favor of fraud having happened.

My question for Cool and those who think the elections were rigged is the same. What evidence, if it existed, would change your mind? I posed several possibilities in my thread of reasons why I'm convinced the elections were clean. I'm curious what you guys think of that. Does that make you second-guess yourself? If not, what evidence, if it existed, would make you think maybe the elections were not stolen?

[Wolvesfan21]

WolvesFan 21, I'm not sure how the quotes you've cited or the excerpt about the CIA (source?) are relevant to the issue Cool has raised here. I read your earlier post suggesting that basically all elections are fraudulent, but let's focus on the ones Cool has highlighted here, the presidential election and the Georgia senatorial elections this year.

One way to think about an issue is to ask yourself what evidence, if it existed, would change your mind. For me, since I believe these elections were legit, one bit of evidence that might change my mind would be if there were clear video evidence of election counters intentionally destroying many ballots that they suspected would go for Trump. This would have to be video of these ballots being destroyed before the ballots themselves were first received, because they count all the ballots they have first, then open them and see who the votes were for. So if someone destroyed ballots for Trump after opening them and seeing who the ballots were for, the count would have been off and it would have triggered red flags. Video evidence is always tricky because it can easily take something out of context, so this video evidence would have to really be contextualized somehow. It should be clear who, when, and what exactly was happening and it should fit the description above. I've seen some random clips that purport to show this, but all of those I've seen have really been pulled out of context.

Another thing that might change my mind would be if longtime, legitimate nonpartisan election organizers who were heavily involved in the election testify that they witnessed, investigated, and discovered evidence of widespread voter fraud in their state. If the people running these elections produced legitimate official paperwork showing a significantly higher number of ballots were taken in than the ultimate number of votes, that might indicate that someone was destroying ballots after opening them. The fact that even Republican officials who oversaw these elections like Brad Raffensperger in Georgia https://apnews.com/article/trump-raffensperger-phone-call-georgia-d503c8b4e58f7cd648fbf9a746131ec9say that it didn't happen is strong evidence to me that there was no fraud. But if an unbiased official who managed or was heavily involved in these elections came out with evidence they were fraudulent, I would take that as evidence in favor of fraud having happened.

My question for Cool and those who think the elections were rigged is the same. What evidence, if it existed, would change your mind? I posed several possibilities in my thread of reasons why I'm convinced the elections were clean. I'm curious what you guys think of that. Does that make you second-guess yourself? If not, what evidence, if it existed, would make you think maybe the elections were not stolen?

Basically, the election itself doesn't matter. As FDR said, Presidents are selected, not elected.

The people above the GOV (Federal Reserve bankers) really MOSTLY control the GOV and the elections to the point that either "side" has to do as they want.

Cool's points don't even matter. The US has been a hostage to the bankers since 1913. We have been slaves to fictional money since then. Debt based since 1971.

There is nothing NEW going on that hasn't been for many decades. We have always been slaves to the self proclaimed elites and their fake money. The democracy has not ever been legitimate in my lifetime. That is the point. Money controls politics and politicians, not a vote.

So the quotes are outlining the BIG picture how things really work. From the fraudulent money we use to the fraudulent GOV we have.

[Monster]

This is way too important to worry about what is being posted on a message board. If you're a believer, thank God people are willing to discuss this anywhere. This isn't some sacred place - give me a break. The censorship going on today should scare the hell out of anyone regardless of your own ideology. No free elections, no free speech. You have to be able to see past the end of your nose.

I'll only say I think it is vital, especially in these times to have a place where we can just be people, friends, and/or fans without having politics involved. I share many of your concerns, but I think there are better places to vent them where we don't risk the friendships that have developed over the years around this board. Having a place devoid of politics allows us to see each other as human beings, as friends, something politics is guaranteed to destroy. If this country is going to pull through this mess it's only gong to happen if we start relating to each other as individuals again, rather than opponents.

Go Wolves, or something!

I don't want to risk the board community either. I've been reading and posting going back to well before they shut down the ESPN board that migrated here. I remember starting around 2001-2002. I do wish it was actually more of a community than an ongoing conversation. I wish we used our real names and could actually watch games in person together. There's no substitute for real, in-person friendships. Still, the personalities and discussions on this message board have been an important and dependable part of my life for nearly two decades. SP, I can see you value that too, and I'm sure there Cool and most of the guys here feel the same way.

However, I do think it's worth engaging in political discussions in isolated threads on this board despite how much I value this community. In fact, I think it's specifically because I value you guys and this community that I think it's important to talk politics.

By politics here, I mean any kind of discussion about how communities make decisions that affect them and what sorts of decisions they make in terms of policies. That can be national politics on issues of guns or elections, but it could also be about state, local, or international issues as well.

SP, you are right that talking politics often divides people and too many people dehumanize each other when talking politics. And whenever that happens, I feel a strong urge to get away from that. Actually, when I moved to Germany almost 7 years ago, one of the things I was most happy about was getting away from the political divisiveness in America. I remember feeling even then like I was moving out of a dysfunctional family household. And from a distance, over the years, I've seen that dysfunction get much worse and it's broken my heart.

But I think the problem here is not so much politics as a topic, it's the way we talk about politics. The resentment, the dehumanization, the divisiveness, that doesn't just come from the issues themselves--it comes from us. We need to do a better job of really listening to one another, trying to see things from their perspective, trying to really figure out honestly for ourselves what we think and what we value, and ultimately accepting that others will disagree with us and that sometimes we'll get our way and sometimes we won't.

We have to be able to disagree with people politically, even on the most important issues, and still respect them and even see them as friends. If we can't, how can we ever come together to make decisions that affect us all?

I know what it feels like to want to withdraw. But my fear is that by doing that, we're actually making the situation worse. Over decades, we've essentially been going through the process of politically segregating ourselves in the real world and online. Lots of studies show that Americans today are much more likely than just a few decades ago to live near, work with, and be friends with people who agree with them politically, and the internet has basically turbocharged that into the political echo chambers we all live in. In that context, if we avoid political disagreements, I fear we're just making the situation worse.

Crazy as it sounds, this Timberwolves message board offers a chance to make it a little better. It's another specialized place on the internet that brings people together with a shared interest. And because that interest has nothing to do with politics, what we actually have here is a community that probably reflects a range of political views rather than the platforms on which people usually talk politics and which are usually politically segregated--liberal echo chambers and conservative echo chambers. Because this board reflects a range of political views, it offers an opportunity to try to have healthy political discussions and disagreements, which we obviously need to learn how to do better.

In the case of Cool's post about the election, I think it's particularly important to try to understand one another because the issue seems like more of a disagreement about reality than an opinion about a certain policy. The question here is whether elections were stolen, which is either true or not. That's even more fundamental than a question like what gun policy should be, which is a matter of opinion. In this case, the question of whether or not these elections were fraudulently stolen is a question of fact. It happened or it didn't. We're really debating reality itself here, and that, frankly, is disturbing. I think Cool's a smart guy. I hope he thinks I am too! Yet one of us must be wrong. I'm sure we both hope you all consider real evidence carefully and come to a decision yourself. But this is not a case where you can split hairs and say "well, maybe they both have good arguments." And on top of that, whichever one of us is wrong is arguably undermining democracy as well as reality. Either I'm wrong, these elections were stolen, and I'm legitimizing a decades-long conspiracy involving enemies foreign and domestic. Or Cool's wrong, these elections were legit, and he's legitimizing a conspiracy-theorizing President and his followers as they've tried to overturn the rightful will of the people.

I'm not sure if it's possible to bridge this gap between Cool and I, or between all of us on both sides of this divide. Honestly, probably not. But we don't have a choice to opt out. That's kind of what I've learned even after moving out of the country. Like it or not, we're stuck with each other, even if it is a dysfunctional family right now. But as least by by listening, empathizing, trying to lay out the evidence as objectively as possible, and showing respect for each other, maybe we can at least fight against the dehumanization that SP is right happens all too often in political discussion. Maybe we can help make the family a bit less dysfunctional.

That was a good post.

I think we have turned the corner of no return though.

Drew that was a wonderful post.

Future, I hope people don't give up.

[Monster]

"I'm smarter than a lot of people think, I just look like this". Anthony Edwards, 2021

Lol

[Monster]

The question I have begun to ask myself even more the past few months is:

If this person (I'll use Cool as an example of a person I think is more than reasonably intelligent and of generally sound mind) believes something I believe is false what could there be that I am actually wrong about or perceive incorrectly? We have to be willing to question our positions and that's whether we are talking basketball or this the type of topics that come up in threads like this one.

Cool I appreciate you willing to share your perspective and your overall tone In doing so. My question is what are the solutions? When it comes to things typically termed "political" I find apathy is a big problem that occurs. Is there a way that people (like Drew said are looking at things from different views of reality) can work towards some sort of a common goal? I hope so. If nothing else sports should be an example of how people that are very different can interact with each other in a more than decent manner. I'm here willing to listen.

[Coolbreeze44]

Gents, I wish we could all get into a room and hear each others opinions on this because I think it's THAT important. But as I said at the tip, I don't want to get in a back and forth on here. But if you want to take it into the General discussion forum I would be happy to participate there.

[D-Mac [enjin:19736340]]

WolvesFan 21, I'm not sure how the quotes you've cited or the excerpt about the CIA (source?) are relevant to the issue Cool has raised here. I read your earlier post suggesting that basically all elections are fraudulent, but let's focus on the ones Cool has highlighted here, the presidential election and the Georgia senatorial elections this year.

One way to think about an issue is to ask yourself what evidence, if it existed, would change your mind. For me, since I believe these elections were legit, one bit of evidence that might change my mind would be if there were clear video evidence of election counters intentionally destroying many ballots that they suspected would go for Trump. This would have to be video of these ballots being destroyed before the ballots themselves were first received, because they count all the ballots they have first, then open them and see who the votes were for. So if someone destroyed ballots for Trump after opening them and seeing who the ballots were for, the count would have been off and it would have triggered red flags. Video evidence is always tricky because it can easily take something out of context, so this video evidence would have to really be contextualized somehow. It should be clear who, when, and what exactly was happening and it should fit the description above. I've seen some random clips that purport to show this, but all of those I've seen have really been pulled out of context.

Another thing that might change my mind would be if longtime, legitimate nonpartisan election organizers who were heavily involved in the election testify that they witnessed, investigated, and discovered evidence of widespread voter fraud in their state. If the people running these elections produced legitimate official paperwork showing a significantly higher number of ballots were taken in than the ultimate number of votes, that might indicate that someone was destroying ballots after opening them. The fact that even Republican officials who oversaw these elections like Brad Raffensperger in Georgia https://apnews.com/article/trump-raffensperger-phone-call-georgia-d503c8b4e58f7cd648fbf9a746131ec9say that it didn't happen is strong evidence to me that there was no fraud. But if an unbiased official who managed or was heavily involved in these elections came out with evidence they were fraudulent, I would take that as evidence in favor of fraud having happened.

My question for Cool and those who think the elections were rigged is the same. What evidence, if it existed, would change your mind? I posed several possibilities in my thread of reasons why I'm convinced the elections were clean. I'm curious what you guys think of that. Does that make you second-guess yourself? If not, what evidence, if it existed, would make you think maybe the elections were not stolen?

Basically, the election itself doesn't matter. As FDR said, Presidents are selected, not elected.

The people above the GOV (Federal Reserve bankers) really MOSTLY control the GOV and the elections to the point that either "side" has to do as they want.

Cool's points don't even matter. The US has been a hostage to the bankers since 1913. We have been slaves to fictional money since then. Debt based since 1971.

There is nothing NEW going on that hasn't been for many decades. We have always been slaves to the self proclaimed elites and their fake money. The democracy has not ever been legitimate in my lifetime. That is the point. Money controls politics and politicians, not a vote.

So the quotes are outlining the BIG picture how things really work. From the fraudulent money we use to the fraudulent GOV we have.

I agree with pretty much everything in this post and your other ones, but I think by expanding your topics so much you might be taking the focus off of our current immediate problems at hand. I'll risk sounding like a nut here (but don't really care)... I think the current world events are a sign of the 2nd coming of Christ/rapture. I won't go into more detail, but I'd urge you to check it out. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one on here who believes that, although I'm sure the majority don't. Obviously I'd be open to any discussion anyone would like to have on this ( I get that this probably isn't the appropriate place)

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I absolutely do NOT want to lose anyone from this board due to political/world events/religious type topics and discussions. I have engaged a bit previously in these topics, but have and will abstain moving forward.

Having said that, there are no moderators or anyone that has any access to become one (as far as I know), so people are totally free to post whatever they want whether me or anyone else likes it or not or agrees with it or not.

Therefore, I would agree with Cool and request kindly going forward that if people have an appetite to discuss and debate topics not related to sports, they should do it in the General Discussion section. I wish Cool would have done that to begin with instead of using the Timberwolves section.

So if this thread is to continue, I would kindly ask that someone starts a new one in the General Discussion section. Those of us not interested can opt out and don't have to view the thread or have it clutter the Wolves board threads. And let's keep the Wolves and other sports-related threads politics free!

Thanks all!

[Wolvesfan21]

WolvesFan 21, I'm not sure how the quotes you've cited or the excerpt about the CIA (source?) are relevant to the issue Cool has raised here. I read your earlier post suggesting that basically all elections are fraudulent, but let's focus on the ones Cool has highlighted here, the presidential election and the Georgia senatorial elections this year.

One way to think about an issue is to ask yourself what evidence, if it existed, would change your mind. For me, since I believe these elections were legit, one bit of evidence that might change my mind would be if there were clear video evidence of election counters intentionally destroying many ballots that they suspected would go for Trump. This would have to be video of these ballots being destroyed before the ballots themselves were first received, because they count all the ballots they have first, then open them and see who the votes were for. So if someone destroyed ballots for Trump after opening them and seeing who the ballots were for, the count would have been off and it would have triggered red flags. Video evidence is always tricky because it can easily take something out of context, so this video evidence would have to really be contextualized somehow. It should be clear who, when, and what exactly was happening and it should fit the description above. I've seen some random clips that purport to show this, but all of those I've seen have really been pulled out of context.

Another thing that might change my mind would be if longtime, legitimate nonpartisan election organizers who were heavily involved in the election testify that they witnessed, investigated, and discovered evidence of widespread voter fraud in their state. If the people running these elections produced legitimate official paperwork showing a significantly higher number of ballots were taken in than the ultimate number of votes, that might indicate that someone was destroying ballots after opening them. The fact that even Republican officials who oversaw these elections like Brad Raffensperger in Georgia https://apnews.com/article/trump-raffensperger-phone-call-georgia-d503c8b4e58f7cd648fbf9a746131ec9say that it didn't happen is strong evidence to me that there was no fraud. But if an unbiased official who managed or was heavily involved in these elections came out with evidence they were fraudulent, I would take that as evidence in favor of fraud having happened.

My question for Cool and those who think the elections were rigged is the same. What evidence, if it existed, would change your mind? I posed several possibilities in my thread of reasons why I'm convinced the elections were clean. I'm curious what you guys think of that. Does that make you second-guess yourself? If not, what evidence, if it existed, would make you think maybe the elections were not stolen?

Basically, the election itself doesn't matter. As FDR said, Presidents are selected, not elected.

The people above the GOV (Federal Reserve bankers) really MOSTLY control the GOV and the elections to the point that either "side" has to do as they want.

Cool's points don't even matter. The US has been a hostage to the bankers since 1913. We have been slaves to fictional money since then. Debt based since 1971.

There is nothing NEW going on that hasn't been for many decades. We have always been slaves to the self proclaimed elites and their fake money. The democracy has not ever been legitimate in my lifetime. That is the point. Money controls politics and politicians, not a vote.

So the quotes are outlining the BIG picture how things really work. From the fraudulent money we use to the fraudulent GOV we have.

I agree with pretty much everything in this post and your other ones, but I think by expanding your topics so much you might be taking the focus off of our current immediate problems at hand. I'll risk sounding like a nut here (but don't really care)... I think the current world events are a sign of the 2nd coming of Christ/rapture. I won't go into more detail, but I'd urge you to check it out. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one on here who believes that, although I'm sure the majority don't. Obviously I'd be open to any discussion anyone would like to have on this ( I get that this probably isn't the appropriate place)

I'm more agnostic then anything, I've just seen so many problems with many organized Religions and yet I don't dismiss that a higher power is possible. I just feel like organized Religions are part of the control structures, if not they've been hijacked by them over time.

The CIA itself just puts too much crap out there and disinformation it's mind boggling. So I just need hard core proof to actually believe one way or another.