Wolves vs Blazers GDT

[Wolvesfan21]

To me, this team repeatedly not showing up to play is a coaching issue. When your guys are just going through the motions and not showing up prepared to play games that has a high level of responsibility on the coach. Pop doesn't just yank his starters out when they shit the bed for the hell of it. He sends them a message that it's not ok to just come not ready to play. It's hard to win in this league. You have to show up and do your job and if you aren't that's on the coach to send you that message that it's not ok to keep repeatedly showing up not ready to play. These guys need an adult in the room otherwise they are just gonna walk all over Ryan to mediocrity because they clearly lack the maturity to do this difficult job on a nightly basis.

You make good points. Yes, I've made them before as well. Thibs/Mitchell/Saunders from day 1 should have been benching Wiggins or anyone else not putting in 100%. I kind of have to single out Wiggins because he's the one who was constantly playing huge minutes over the last 4-5 years while not performing up to a high enough level. Sure, pre contract he was putting in more effort. But then Glen said if Wiggins pinky swore to try he would give him a max deal. Now we know how that went.

In the NBA you have a damned if you do damned if you don't problem as well. Say the coach (pick one) benches Wiggins. Then Wiggins who at the time had all the potential and was a #1 pick and many fan favorite then decides to ask for a trade, or decides the coach needs to go. Players have a lot of say.

Pop of course can somewhat get away with it. But just maybe he rubbed Kawhi the wrong way benching him a few times (I've seen Pop pull the entire starting lineup). Kawhi decides he is out of there. Not saying that for sure happened but it's possible.

Now enter Ryan, he's thrown in mid season and is what 34 years old, the youngest coach in the NBA. Can he really bench Wiggins after no other coach had before at this point and still have Wiggins on his side? It's a gamble, not only that, as bad as the Wolves are, Wiggins is still needed to try win games. The Wolves have no depth on the wing and of course the coach needs to win to keep his job right?

Then you also have a potential media circus around the benching. Is Ryan and Wiggins ready to answer those questions? We already saw how horribly Wiggins reacted to being booed.

Maybe Ryan needs to say pretty please Wiggins will you try hard? lol D:

Your last sentence just makes my point. You shouldn't be a coach in this league if you are resorting to that kind of behavior to motivate players. The only people who would get pushed away with some tough love are not building blocks for a contender anyways because they don't have the level of mutual respect between player and coach you need. If KAT demanded a trade because we sat him to close a game where he didn't bring it then send him out. If you aren't professional and can't handle being actually coached you're never gonna win anyway and you can go be Melo somewhere else.

Yeah but then you also screw up his trade value too, like it could get any lower.

But then again, I never thought Wiggins was going to be a star. He always looked to passive to me too much of the time. Guys who are great bring it more then once in a blue moon.

Also, My last sentence was in jest of course, which I'm sure you knew.

[BizarroJerry [enjin:6592520]]

Remember boys. This team is tanking. Let's not overanalyze the stats from the last 10 to 20 games.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

To me, this team repeatedly not showing up to play is a coaching issue. When your guys are just going through the motions and not showing up prepared to play games that has a high level of responsibility on the coach. Pop doesn't just yank his starters out when they shit the bed for the hell of it. He sends them a message that it's not ok to just come not ready to play. It's hard to win in this league. You have to show up and do your job and if you aren't that's on the coach to send you that message that it's not ok to keep repeatedly showing up not ready to play. These guys need an adult in the room otherwise they are just gonna walk all over Ryan to mediocrity because they clearly lack the maturity to do this difficult job on a nightly basis.

You make good points. Yes, I've made them before as well. Thibs/Mitchell/Saunders from day 1 should have been benching Wiggins or anyone else not putting in 100%. I kind of have to single out Wiggins because he's the one who was constantly playing huge minutes over the last 4-5 years while not performing up to a high enough level. Sure, pre contract he was putting in more effort. But then Glen said if Wiggins pinky swore to try he would give him a max deal. Now we know how that went.

In the NBA you have a damned if you do damned if you don't problem as well. Say the coach (pick one) benches Wiggins. Then Wiggins who at the time had all the potential and was a #1 pick and many fan favorite then decides to ask for a trade, or decides the coach needs to go. Players have a lot of say.

Pop of course can somewhat get away with it. But just maybe he rubbed Kawhi the wrong way benching him a few times (I've seen Pop pull the entire starting lineup). Kawhi decides he is out of there. Not saying that for sure happened but it's possible.

Now enter Ryan, he's thrown in mid season and is what 34 years old, the youngest coach in the NBA. Can he really bench Wiggins after no other coach had before at this point and still have Wiggins on his side? It's a gamble, not only that, as bad as the Wolves are, Wiggins is still needed to try win games. The Wolves have no depth on the wing and of course the coach needs to win to keep his job right?

Then you also have a potential media circus around the benching. Is Ryan and Wiggins ready to answer those questions? We already saw how horribly Wiggins reacted to being booed.

Maybe Ryan needs to say pretty please Wiggins will you try hard? lol D:

Your last sentence just makes my point. You shouldn't be a coach in this league if you are resorting to that kind of behavior to motivate players. The only people who would get pushed away with some tough love are not building blocks for a contender anyways because they don't have the level of mutual respect between player and coach you need. If KAT demanded a trade because we sat him to close a game where he didn't bring it then send him out. If you aren't professional and can't handle being actually coached you're never gonna win anyway and you can go be Melo somewhere else.

Yeah but then you also screw up his trade value too, like it could get any lower.

But then again, I never thought Wiggins was going to be a star. He always looked to passive to me too much of the time. Guys who are great bring it more then once in a blue moon.

Also, My last sentence was in jest of course, which I'm sure you knew.

The last sentence was in jest, but I don't think reality is that far off that exageration at this point. They are pretty much just hoping he plays hard at this point and not doing much to actually address the problem. Frankly what can a pissed off Wiggins even do to this team? Demand a trade? Nobody wants him and he'll just find himself on the bench for 4 straight years. I don't really care about trade value because the only person who gets us anything worthwhile is Towns and there's nothing he can really do on his extension to lower his value. He's just way too far away from his contract being up for another team to wait for him.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I find it ironic here that fans want some tough, disciplinary action from the head coach towards players that just aren't bringing the effort required of them -- but these are the same fans that couldn't tolerate a head coach yelling from the sideline. Which is it? Do you want a coach to make his voice heard and hold firm with his principles (right or wrong) or do you want the likable, fresh haircut, best-dressed gentleman who gets pushed over?

Seriously, does anyone really think Saunders has a commanding presence in the Wolves locker room? Keep in mind, however, that is not always synonymous with being likable.

[Lipoli390]

I find it ironic here that fans want some tough, disciplinary action from the head coach towards players that just aren't bringing the effort required of them -- but these are the same fans that couldn't tolerate a head coach yelling from the sideline. Which is it? Do you want a coach to make his voice heard and hold firm with his principles (right or wrong) or do you want the likable, fresh haircut, best-dressed gentleman who gets pushed over?

Seriously, does anyone really think Saunders has a commanding presence in the Wolves locker room? Keep in mind, however, that is not always synonymous with being likable.

I'm just not with those who believe the Wolves aren't playing with effort. This team without Covington, Rose, Teague and now Taj just isn't very good. We barely captured the 8th seed last season with Jimmy Butler, surrounded by KAT, Wiggins, Teague and Taj. Take Butler away, then lose Covington and what do fans expect?

Do I think Saunders has a commanding presence in the Wolves locker room? No. But I don't think that's the problem. Right now the main problem in my view is the lack of quality players on this team. As for Saunders, my concerns isn't whether he's tough or commanding enough. My concern is whether he's smart and savvy enough. I like the spacing and pace of the offense under Saunders compared to Thibodeau. My concern so far has been with his decision-making. You mentioned Ryan's failure to have his players immediately foul Curry against the Warriors before Curry could put up his tieing 3-pointer. I agree. Sticking with Bayless in the 4th quarter against the Sixers was another head-scratcher. But it's hard to evaluate Saunders under the current circumstances - a bevy of injuries including losing the team's second best player (Covington). I would cut him more slack for playing and developing our younger players if he wasn't giving Bayless so many minutes.

I don't have a final take on Ryan Saunders. I'd consider keeping him as our head coach starting next season, but I'd look hard for better alternatives.

[Coolbreeze44]

I think the reason fans are okay with Okogie is we have very low expectations for our young players. If we had to make a decision right now on whether to pay him or not, I bet attitudes would be a lot different. He is a flawed, one way player. He certainly has a chance to develop beyond that, and should be given every opportunity to do so. But here are some young players on the MIlwaukee Bucks I would take over Josh:

- Malcom Brogdon,
- Donte Divencenzo
- DJ Wilson
- Sterling Brown
- Pat Cannaughton

If that team is completely healthy, Divencenzo, Wilson, and Cannaughton aren't even in the rotation. So pardon me if I have a little trouble getting excited about Okogie.

[Lipoli390]

I think the reason fans are okay with Okogie is we have very low expectations for our young players. If we had to make a decision right now on whether to pay him or not, I bet attitudes would be a lot different. He is a flawed, one way player. He certainly has a chance to develop beyond that, and should be given every opportunity to do so. But here are some young players on the MIlwaukee Bucks I would take over Josh:

- Malcom Brogdon,
- Donte Divencenzo
- DJ Wilson
- Sterling Brown
- Pat Cannaughton

If that team is completely healthy, Divencenzo, Wilson, and Cannaughton aren't even in the rotation. So pardon me if I have a little trouble getting excited about Okogie.

Of course, I'd take Brogdon over Okogie. Who wouldn't? He was rookie of the year and a terrific seasoned young player. I wouldn't take any of those other Milwaukee players over Okogie. Divencenzo's a nice young talent, but wow. He's shooting 40% from the field, 26.5% from behind the arc and 68% from the free throw line, averaging 5 points and 15 minutes per game. He's certainly not a defensive stalwart.

I have high expectations for our young players. But I also understand the importance of patience - patience I wish this organization had shown when they decided to part with Chauncey Billups - patience I wish they had when they decided to trade LaVine, Dunn and our pick for Butler. Okogie has elite attributes that give him a very high ceiling. Whether he ultimately becomes an allstar caliber player or better remains to be seen. But not every NBA allstar had a great rookie season. And if Okogie becomes nothing more than a defensive stopper who occasionally gets hot from behind the arc like Marcus Smart, then that's pretty good. For now, let's acknowlege that Okogie is a 20 year old rookie and enjoy watching a young player with a lot of talent who actually plays with heart.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I don't think people are being realistic in wanting Saunders to play tough guy. The guy is in an incredibly tough spot... as are many NBA coaches.

A couple of guys are slated to make about 150x more than Ryan Saunders. And it's always been a player's league. Coaches are always more expendable, save the very very few with enough clout like Popovich or Stevens. And even that reach is more limited than a legit max player in most cases for everybody except maybe Popovich... maybe.

And let's put it this way, if Duncan wanted him gone... Pop would have been gone.

A guy making $150M isn't going to respond well to a young interim coach who only has the job because of the unfortunate events with his dad.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I don't think people are being realistic in wanting Saunders to play tough guy. The guy is in an incredibly tough spot... as are many NBA coaches.

A couple of guys are slated to make about 150x more than Ryan Saunders. And it's always been a player's league. Coaches are always more expendable, save the very very few with enough clout like Popovich or Stevens. And even that reach is more limited than a legit max player in most cases for everybody except maybe Popovich... maybe.

And let's put it this way, if Duncan wanted him gone... Pop would have been gone.

A guy making $150M isn't going to respond well to a young interim coach who only has the job because of the unfortunate events with his dad.

Well they aren't responding to the young interim coach who's trying to be their buddy either. If bad cop and good cop don't work then it sounds like we should just move on from that 150 million dollar player who can't be a professional night in and night out. They got rid of Thibs and rewarded the organization with soft, unmotivated play that is one of the worst defensive teams in the league.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I find it ironic here that fans want some tough, disciplinary action from the head coach towards players that just aren't bringing the effort required of them -- but these are the same fans that couldn't tolerate a head coach yelling from the sideline. Which is it? Do you want a coach to make his voice heard and hold firm with his principles (right or wrong) or do you want the likable, fresh haircut, best-dressed gentleman who gets pushed over?

Seriously, does anyone really think Saunders has a commanding presence in the Wolves locker room? Keep in mind, however, that is not always synonymous with being likable.

You must not have read me being one of the last defenders of Thibs on this board. They may have hated him, but the only time they've looked like truly professional basketball players was under him.