CoolBreeze44 wrote:[quote=@6583510]Comparing Thibs and Ryan Saunders thsi season IMHO this year is rational to do to try and make sense of the situation but I also think its probably not really a fair comparison either. Covington hasn't played a single minute for Ryan and then you have a slew of injuries which Thibs did have some injury issues to deal with also but not like this. Thibs a couple years ago consider a top level head coach and Ryan is an interim 32 (turns 33 later this month) old coach taking over a fairly disastrous season. Thibs wasn't good enough to keep the job. Is Ryan good enough to get this job and keep it? idk but comparing his record or team play to Thibs or whatever I don't really think it's actually a worthwhile endeavor all things considered. Keep in mind I tended to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt more than most here.
Also I'm sure Ryan is more warm and fuzzy or whatever than Thibs but the idea that he is over there never yelling at anyone and just being pals seems a bit unfair also. I think its telling that guys like Taj Deng and Rose who played for Thibs and are Thibs guys also love Ryan.
Monster, explain to me how it's rational to try and do so. To me it's totally irrational. And I'm not just exonerating Ryan. He needs to be judged on far different criteria than Thibs though.
Why though? Because he's not an ass hole he deserves different criteria. I'm not even talking X's and O's with Ryan being the problem. This team is not showing up to games ready to play. That doesn't require time to implement your own system. That is literally the bare minimum thing you can do as a new coach. Get guys to show up and play hard for you for 48 minutes. You literally don't have to do any actual basketball coaching to accomplish that.
The team just fired the most hated coach we've ever had, then the players were given a player friendly coach and they don't show up and play hard for Ryan. I'm literally evaluating him on the bare minimum I would expect a new coach to bring to a job and he's failing at that. Why is a new system implemented over the summer gonna get guys to close out harder? It's not.
The fact is that he should at a bare minimum be able to get effort out of them which would stop these complete tank job 1st quarters and actually give us a chance to win games, but he can't do that. That is absolutely something he should be criticized for. We're not the only team hit with the injury bug this year. That doesn't absolve not showing up and playing hard every night. You don't get down double digits every night because of a bad scheme in the NBA. You do that because you don't show up ready to bring the effort an NBA game requires every night.
I don't hate Bayless like others. He is a combo guard thats really more of a scoring guard being asked to play as a true PG with 2 rookies blah blah blah. I'm not arguing he is good but I don't think he completely sucks or is selfish. Thats my take. Would I be fine with Terrell getting all or some of his minutes? Sure but I'm guessing Bayless is more prepared to play PG for that bench group (who have often performed surprisingly well at times) than a rookie who a little over a year ago sometime was playing forward in a small ball college lineup.
Here's a game we all can all play while watching these meaningless Timberwolves games. Check to see if Tyus Jones is at the scorer's table -- and then watch what Bayless does.
I've mentioned it before, but a shot is going up on an inordinate amount of possessions... (or as in the last game, he simply loses the ball out of bounds while taking it to the hoop after not passing to anybody else on the possession).
You see it that way but I don't. I respect your take I just see it differently. Thats all. I think we can agree it would be like ok if we basically never have to discuss Bayless a few weeks from now.
I don't hate Bayless like others. He is a combo guard thats really more of a scoring guard being asked to play as a true PG with 2 rookies blah blah blah. I'm not arguing he is good but I don't think he completely sucks or is selfish. Thats my take. Would I be fine with Terrell getting all or some of his minutes? Sure but I'm guessing Bayless is more prepared to play PG for that bench group (who have often performed surprisingly well at times) than a rookie who a little over a year ago sometime was playing forward in a small ball college lineup.
Here's a game we all can all play while watching these meaningless Timberwolves games. Check to see if Tyus Jones is at the scorer's table -- and then watch what Bayless does.
I've mentioned it before, but a shot is going up on an inordinate amount of possessions... (or as in the last game, he simply loses the ball out of bounds while taking it to the hoop after not passing to anybody else on the possession).
You see it that way but I don't. I respect your take I just see it differently. Thats all. I think we can agree it would be like ok if we basically never have to discuss Bayless a few weeks from now.
Sure. We're all cool with Bayless being gone.
But I'm not imagining the "get one more shot up" take. He's been called out by former players, now broadcasters on telecasts... and I've read about other players doing similar things in NBA books over the years.
Not a huge deal. Just one of those uniquely NBA things that makes the game more interesting to follow when all is said and done.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:[quote=@6583510]Comparing Thibs and Ryan Saunders thsi season IMHO this year is rational to do to try and make sense of the situation but I also think its probably not really a fair comparison either. Covington hasn't played a single minute for Ryan and then you have a slew of injuries which Thibs did have some injury issues to deal with also but not like this. Thibs a couple years ago consider a top level head coach and Ryan is an interim 32 (turns 33 later this month) old coach taking over a fairly disastrous season. Thibs wasn't good enough to keep the job. Is Ryan good enough to get this job and keep it? idk but comparing his record or team play to Thibs or whatever I don't really think it's actually a worthwhile endeavor all things considered. Keep in mind I tended to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt more than most here.
Also I'm sure Ryan is more warm and fuzzy or whatever than Thibs but the idea that he is over there never yelling at anyone and just being pals seems a bit unfair also. I think its telling that guys like Taj Deng and Rose who played for Thibs and are Thibs guys also love Ryan.
Monster, explain to me how it's rational to try and do so. To me it's totally irrational. And I'm not just exonerating Ryan. He needs to be judged on far different criteria than Thibs though.
Cool I think you misread my post. It seems like from what you wrote we are actually more on the same page. My point about it being rational to compare them is simply one way of gathering information. As I went on to explain the comparison doesn't seem fair. I agree Ryan should be judged differently than Thibs. Again the comparison just doesn't seem like a great one but it's simply hard not to do it because of basic human nature and really we have a hard time judging Ryan Saunders because we only have so much to go on. Make sense?
I don't hate Bayless like others. He is a combo guard thats really more of a scoring guard being asked to play as a true PG with 2 rookies blah blah blah. I'm not arguing he is good but I don't think he completely sucks or is selfish. Thats my take. Would I be fine with Terrell getting all or some of his minutes? Sure but I'm guessing Bayless is more prepared to play PG for that bench group (who have often performed surprisingly well at times) than a rookie who a little over a year ago sometime was playing forward in a small ball college lineup.
Here's a game we all can all play while watching these meaningless Timberwolves games. Check to see if Tyus Jones is at the scorer's table -- and then watch what Bayless does.
I've mentioned it before, but a shot is going up on an inordinate amount of possessions... (or as in the last game, he simply loses the ball out of bounds while taking it to the hoop after not passing to anybody else on the possession).
You see it that way but I don't. I respect your take I just see it differently. Thats all. I think we can agree it would be like ok if we basically never have to discuss Bayless a few weeks from now.
Sure. We're all cool with Bayless being gone.
But I'm not imagining the "get one more shot up" take. He's been called out by former players, now broadcasters on telecasts... and I've read about other players doing similar things in NBA books over the years.
Not a huge deal. Just one of those uniquely NBA things that makes the game more interesting to follow when all is said and done.
Are these former players his teammates or people just making takes on what they think is happening?
I don't hate Bayless like others. He is a combo guard thats really more of a scoring guard being asked to play as a true PG with 2 rookies blah blah blah. I'm not arguing he is good but I don't think he completely sucks or is selfish. Thats my take. Would I be fine with Terrell getting all or some of his minutes? Sure but I'm guessing Bayless is more prepared to play PG for that bench group (who have often performed surprisingly well at times) than a rookie who a little over a year ago sometime was playing forward in a small ball college lineup.
Here's a game we all can all play while watching these meaningless Timberwolves games. Check to see if Tyus Jones is at the scorer's table -- and then watch what Bayless does.
I've mentioned it before, but a shot is going up on an inordinate amount of possessions... (or as in the last game, he simply loses the ball out of bounds while taking it to the hoop after not passing to anybody else on the possession).
You see it that way but I don't. I respect your take I just see it differently. Thats all. I think we can agree it would be like ok if we basically never have to discuss Bayless a few weeks from now.
Sure. We're all cool with Bayless being gone.
But I'm not imagining the "get one more shot up" take. He's been called out by former players, now broadcasters on telecasts... and I've read about other players doing similar things in NBA books over the years.
Not a huge deal. Just one of those uniquely NBA things that makes the game more interesting to follow when all is said and done.
Are these former players his teammates or people just making takes on what they think is happening?
Call it what you want... but a player knows when he's coming out of the game (e.g., Tyus Jones standing by the scorer's table)... so when that player has a tendency (chronicled here) of dribbling down the court as the de facto PG and taking a shot early in the shot clock without making a pass...
It's not the biggest leap in anecdotal NBA observations... if nothing else, it's a very terrible way to play basketball. Even Troy Hudson would blush.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:[quote=@6583510]Comparing Thibs and Ryan Saunders thsi season IMHO this year is rational to do to try and make sense of the situation but I also think its probably not really a fair comparison either. Covington hasn't played a single minute for Ryan and then you have a slew of injuries which Thibs did have some injury issues to deal with also but not like this. Thibs a couple years ago consider a top level head coach and Ryan is an interim 32 (turns 33 later this month) old coach taking over a fairly disastrous season. Thibs wasn't good enough to keep the job. Is Ryan good enough to get this job and keep it? idk but comparing his record or team play to Thibs or whatever I don't really think it's actually a worthwhile endeavor all things considered. Keep in mind I tended to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt more than most here.
Also I'm sure Ryan is more warm and fuzzy or whatever than Thibs but the idea that he is over there never yelling at anyone and just being pals seems a bit unfair also. I think its telling that guys like Taj Deng and Rose who played for Thibs and are Thibs guys also love Ryan.
Monster, explain to me how it's rational to try and do so. To me it's totally irrational. And I'm not just exonerating Ryan. He needs to be judged on far different criteria than Thibs though.
Why though? Because he's not an ass hole he deserves different criteria. I'm not even talking X's and O's with Ryan being the problem. This team is not showing up to games ready to play. That doesn't require time to implement your own system. That is literally the bare minimum thing you can do as a new coach. Get guys to show up and play hard for you for 48 minutes. You literally don't have to do any actual basketball coaching to accomplish that.
The team just fired the most hated coach we've ever had, then the players were given a player friendly coach and they don't show up and play hard for Ryan. I'm literally evaluating him on the bare minimum I would expect a new coach to bring to a job and he's failing at that. Why is a new system implemented over the summer gonna get guys to close out harder? It's not.
The fact is that he should at a bare minimum be able to get effort out of them which would stop these complete tank job 1st quarters and actually give us a chance to win games, but he can't do that. That is absolutely something he should be criticized for. We're not the only team hit with the injury bug this year. That doesn't absolve not showing up and playing hard every night. You don't get down double digits every night because of a bad scheme in the NBA. You do that because you don't show up ready to bring the effort an NBA game requires every night.
Wiggins doesn't play hard for anyone, so forget that. KAT and everyone else do bring it, KAT has been crushing it under Ryan. Other guys it's a bit inconsistent at times like it's always been. Jim Pete has been saying the players have been playing hard, I tend to agree.
Giving up early leads doesn't always mean lack of effort, it could simply be that they are less talented.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:[quote=@6583510]Comparing Thibs and Ryan Saunders thsi season IMHO this year is rational to do to try and make sense of the situation but I also think its probably not really a fair comparison either. Covington hasn't played a single minute for Ryan and then you have a slew of injuries which Thibs did have some injury issues to deal with also but not like this. Thibs a couple years ago consider a top level head coach and Ryan is an interim 32 (turns 33 later this month) old coach taking over a fairly disastrous season. Thibs wasn't good enough to keep the job. Is Ryan good enough to get this job and keep it? idk but comparing his record or team play to Thibs or whatever I don't really think it's actually a worthwhile endeavor all things considered. Keep in mind I tended to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt more than most here.
Also I'm sure Ryan is more warm and fuzzy or whatever than Thibs but the idea that he is over there never yelling at anyone and just being pals seems a bit unfair also. I think its telling that guys like Taj Deng and Rose who played for Thibs and are Thibs guys also love Ryan.
Monster, explain to me how it's rational to try and do so. To me it's totally irrational. And I'm not just exonerating Ryan. He needs to be judged on far different criteria than Thibs though.
Why though? Because he's not an ass hole he deserves different criteria. I'm not even talking X's and O's with Ryan being the problem. This team is not showing up to games ready to play. That doesn't require time to implement your own system. That is literally the bare minimum thing you can do as a new coach. Get guys to show up and play hard for you for 48 minutes. You literally don't have to do any actual basketball coaching to accomplish that.
The team just fired the most hated coach we've ever had, then the players were given a player friendly coach and they don't show up and play hard for Ryan. I'm literally evaluating him on the bare minimum I would expect a new coach to bring to a job and he's failing at that. Why is a new system implemented over the summer gonna get guys to close out harder? It's not.
The fact is that he should at a bare minimum be able to get effort out of them which would stop these complete tank job 1st quarters and actually give us a chance to win games, but he can't do that. That is absolutely something he should be criticized for. We're not the only team hit with the injury bug this year. That doesn't absolve not showing up and playing hard every night. You don't get down double digits every night because of a bad scheme in the NBA. You do that because you don't show up ready to bring the effort an NBA game requires every night.
Wiggins doesn't play hard for anyone, so forget that. KAT and everyone else do bring it, KAT has been crushing it under Ryan. Other guys it's a bit inconsistent at times like it's always been. Jim Pete has been saying the players have been playing hard, I tend to agree.
Giving up early leads doesn't always mean lack of effort, it could simply be that they are less talented.
So on your initial point I disagree.
Brit probably did a better job making the point I was trying to make in his conversation with AP guy on the Athletic:
"BR: As the cynic in this particular discussion, I would point out that Saunders has no choice but to be frustrated. Asked during the postgame interview the other day to outline the goals he is setting moving forward for the team on defense, Ryan wisely kept it general but still said better performance-readiness in the first quarter and an improvement on defending 3-pointers were the two primary areas of focus. Then Portland gets 38 points in the first period and nails half of 30 3-point attempts en route to 132 points. And as long as we are talking injuries, this is a Blazers team missing its second- and third-leading scorers in C.J. McCollum and Jusuf Nurkic.
This is the conundrum for Ryan. You're right, many players were absolutely miserable under Thibs. And many, led by Towns and Tyus Jones, but also including vets like Tolliver and Deng, sincerely applaud the openness and more amiable culture Ryan is instilling. But when the response to that amiability and conciliation is historically bad defense -- no team has ever allowed more treys in a 20-game stretch than the Wolves right now, and it is on over 41 percent shooting -- then you've got to wonder whether we've simply careened from one cultural extreme with Thibs to another with Ryan. Happiness without inspiration is an insignificant improvement."
CoolBreeze44 wrote:[quote=@6583510]Comparing Thibs and Ryan Saunders thsi season IMHO this year is rational to do to try and make sense of the situation but I also think its probably not really a fair comparison either. Covington hasn't played a single minute for Ryan and then you have a slew of injuries which Thibs did have some injury issues to deal with also but not like this. Thibs a couple years ago consider a top level head coach and Ryan is an interim 32 (turns 33 later this month) old coach taking over a fairly disastrous season. Thibs wasn't good enough to keep the job. Is Ryan good enough to get this job and keep it? idk but comparing his record or team play to Thibs or whatever I don't really think it's actually a worthwhile endeavor all things considered. Keep in mind I tended to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt more than most here.
Also I'm sure Ryan is more warm and fuzzy or whatever than Thibs but the idea that he is over there never yelling at anyone and just being pals seems a bit unfair also. I think its telling that guys like Taj Deng and Rose who played for Thibs and are Thibs guys also love Ryan.
Monster, explain to me how it's rational to try and do so. To me it's totally irrational. And I'm not just exonerating Ryan. He needs to be judged on far different criteria than Thibs though.
Why though? Because he's not an ass hole he deserves different criteria. I'm not even talking X's and O's with Ryan being the problem. This team is not showing up to games ready to play. That doesn't require time to implement your own system. That is literally the bare minimum thing you can do as a new coach. Get guys to show up and play hard for you for 48 minutes. You literally don't have to do any actual basketball coaching to accomplish that.
The team just fired the most hated coach we've ever had, then the players were given a player friendly coach and they don't show up and play hard for Ryan. I'm literally evaluating him on the bare minimum I would expect a new coach to bring to a job and he's failing at that. Why is a new system implemented over the summer gonna get guys to close out harder? It's not.
The fact is that he should at a bare minimum be able to get effort out of them which would stop these complete tank job 1st quarters and actually give us a chance to win games, but he can't do that. That is absolutely something he should be criticized for. We're not the only team hit with the injury bug this year. That doesn't absolve not showing up and playing hard every night. You don't get down double digits every night because of a bad scheme in the NBA. You do that because you don't show up ready to bring the effort an NBA game requires every night.
Wiggins doesn't play hard for anyone, so forget that. KAT and everyone else do bring it, KAT has been crushing it under Ryan. Other guys it's a bit inconsistent at times like it's always been. Jim Pete has been saying the players have been playing hard, I tend to agree.
Giving up early leads doesn't always mean lack of effort, it could simply be that they are less talented.
So on your initial point I disagree.
My thing though is how fucked are we next year. I mean it's not like we are starting bums. We are starting possibly 4 of our 5 starters next year and the other guy is our young prospect.
I'm just more disappointed in Ryan. We are shooting the same amount of 3s in terms of attempts and frequency. We are playing at a slower pace than with thibs. We are 7 points worse per 100 possessions on D than with thibs. Wiggins stat line is the same across the board besides he has averaged 2.5 more rebounds. And we have had 13 plays last possessions and 0 have been given to Kat.
More disappointed that pretty much nothing has changed from thibs in terms of basketball philosophy besides demeanor.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:[quote=@6583510]Comparing Thibs and Ryan Saunders thsi season IMHO this year is rational to do to try and make sense of the situation but I also think its probably not really a fair comparison either. Covington hasn't played a single minute for Ryan and then you have a slew of injuries which Thibs did have some injury issues to deal with also but not like this. Thibs a couple years ago consider a top level head coach and Ryan is an interim 32 (turns 33 later this month) old coach taking over a fairly disastrous season. Thibs wasn't good enough to keep the job. Is Ryan good enough to get this job and keep it? idk but comparing his record or team play to Thibs or whatever I don't really think it's actually a worthwhile endeavor all things considered. Keep in mind I tended to give Thibs the benefit of the doubt more than most here.
Also I'm sure Ryan is more warm and fuzzy or whatever than Thibs but the idea that he is over there never yelling at anyone and just being pals seems a bit unfair also. I think its telling that guys like Taj Deng and Rose who played for Thibs and are Thibs guys also love Ryan.
Monster, explain to me how it's rational to try and do so. To me it's totally irrational. And I'm not just exonerating Ryan. He needs to be judged on far different criteria than Thibs though.
Why though? Because he's not an ass hole he deserves different criteria. I'm not even talking X's and O's with Ryan being the problem. This team is not showing up to games ready to play. That doesn't require time to implement your own system. That is literally the bare minimum thing you can do as a new coach. Get guys to show up and play hard for you for 48 minutes. You literally don't have to do any actual basketball coaching to accomplish that.
The team just fired the most hated coach we've ever had, then the players were given a player friendly coach and they don't show up and play hard for Ryan. I'm literally evaluating him on the bare minimum I would expect a new coach to bring to a job and he's failing at that. Why is a new system implemented over the summer gonna get guys to close out harder? It's not.
The fact is that he should at a bare minimum be able to get effort out of them which would stop these complete tank job 1st quarters and actually give us a chance to win games, but he can't do that. That is absolutely something he should be criticized for. We're not the only team hit with the injury bug this year. That doesn't absolve not showing up and playing hard every night. You don't get down double digits every night because of a bad scheme in the NBA. You do that because you don't show up ready to bring the effort an NBA game requires every night.
Wiggins doesn't play hard for anyone, so forget that. KAT and everyone else do bring it, KAT has been crushing it under Ryan. Other guys it's a bit inconsistent at times like it's always been. Jim Pete has been saying the players have been playing hard, I tend to agree.
Giving up early leads doesn't always mean lack of effort, it could simply be that they are less talented.
So on your initial point I disagree.
My thing though is how fucked are we next year. I mean it's not like we are starting bums. We are starting possibly 4 of our 5 starters next year and the other guy is our young prospect.
I'm just more disappointed in Ryan. We are shooting the same amount of 3s in terms of attempts and frequency. We are playing at a slower pace than with thibs. We are 7 points worse per 100 possessions on D than with thibs. Wiggins stat line is the same across the board besides he has averaged 2.5 more rebounds. And we have had 13 plays last possessions and 0 have been given to Kat.
More disappointed that pretty much nothing has changed from thibs in terms of basketball philosophy besides demeanor.
What do you honestly expect with this roster? Serious?
