lipoli390 wrote:Rockets beat the Warriors tonight in the Warriors' house. I've been torn all preseason between the Rockets and Thunder as to which is the 2nd best team behind the Warriors. I know it's only one game, but I'll go with the Rockets. Heck, they might give the Warriors a run for the #1 spot. Especially impressive was the fact that the Rockets won even though Chris Paul had a relatively bad game. Trever Ariza also had a relatively poor shooting night for him. Capela didn't play well either. But Tucker had 20 points and 6 boards while Eric Gordon showed again why he was last season's 6th man of the year. And of course, Harden was magnificent. He's clearly one of what I'd consider the 6 super elite players in the League along with LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, Leonard and Curry.
Looking at Harden makes, raises the following question in my mind. What makes Harden so much better than Wiggins? Neither one is good defensively. Harden's not a stellar rebounder either. Yet, unlike Wiggins, Harden typically dominates the game on the offensive end and routinely carries the Rockets to victories. Obviously, Wiggins is younger and less experienced than Harden. On the other hand, Wiggins is clearly significantly longer and more athletic. So what gives?
In answering my own question, I'm going to put aside Harden's floor vision and related passing ability, which are things Wiggins hasn't shown. And I'm not going to venture into a comparison of their competitiveness. Thibs seems convinced that Wiggins isn't lacking in competitiveness. For me, the key difference between the two that explains the gap between the two is ballhandling. Harden is a tremendous ball-handler and Wiggins is not. In fact, Wiggins still has a pretty shaky handle by NBA wing standards. If Wiggins had anything close to Harden's handle, he's be an elite player in spite of his mediocre rebounding and assist totals.
I think many of you are selling the Wolves short in comparing our roster to other Western rivals. In particular, as excited as all of us are about Jimmy Butler, I think we are actually undervaluing him. We all love Kahwi Leonard here...for good reason...but look at the comparative stats last year for Butler and Leonard. Hardly a difference, and Butler actually comes out ahead in win shares. And Thibs says in this morning's Strib that Butler looks even better than last year...he easily could be a top 5 player this season!
Add first round draft picks KAT and Wig to Butler, and only GS and OkC rival our Big 3, and our supporting cast is MUCH better than OkC's (with my sincere apologies to our friend Kiwi :))
Well done LST. The issue with Harden is his abilities defensively. Butler is a MUCH better defensive player and therefore his value as an all around player makes him a guy that could have been in the MVP discussion a lot of other years.
Which brings up another angle in comparing Harden to Wiggins. Being a good defender is a path that COULD give Wiggins some value compared to Harden and becomes an asset on that end. With a Harden you are just hoping for competence. Wiggins hasn't shown enough to say that will happen yet just the opposite but he is still young so we will see and can have SOME hope there.
Q12543 wrote:Lip, I guess I never really even thought about comparing Wiggins with Harden. Harden demonstrated guard-like skills going back to his college days, where he averaged over 4 assists per game as a sophomore. There is no way Wiggins can develop those kind of handles at this stage in his career.
I still think DeRozan or may be Harrison Barnes are the closest existing players to Wiggins IMO. Neither of those guys do much but score, although DeRozan has gradually become a better ball handler and passer over the years and Barnes is probably a better defender right now. I think Wiggins can still develop into a solid-defending, efficient scorer. But he'll never be the elite ball handler and play maker that Harden is.
I agree. I wonder whether its possible to compete for an NBA title without having a star who can dominate a game offensively offensively off the dribble. The Warriors have Curry and Durant who can both do that. The Rockets have Harden and Paul. The Cavs had LeBron and Kyrie last season while Boston had Thomas. The Thunder have Westbrook. Looking back through history, the last iteration of a championship Lakers team had Kobe and before that Magic Johnson. The Heat had Wade and later both Wade and LeBron. The Spurs had Tony Parker and Manu. The Bulls of course had Jordan. When the Sixers played the Lakers in the finals, the Sixers had Iverson. The list goes on.
Who fits that bill for the Wolves right now? I'd say Butler. That's why acquiring him was so huge. It's not just his defense. It's the fact that his ballhandling and other skills enable him to control and take over games offensively off the dribble. Unfortunately, in my view, he's not in the same class in that regard as Harden, Westbrook, Curry, or Durant.
I also thought last night's game illustrated the preeminence of offense in today's NBA, especially in the Western Conference. To be an elite Western Conference team, along with the Warriors, Rockets and Thunder, you have to be able to win games by scoring over 120 points as the Rockets did last night. The Warriors are an excellent defensive team, but had to score 120 points to have a chance last night. While I know the Wolves need to improve their defense over last season, I still think the bigger key for the Wolves will be further improvement in their offense. I can't think of a more defensive-oriented NBA head coach than former coach Larry Brown. A couple months ago I heard him interviewed. He talked about how the game has changed. He really caught my attention when he said that, in today's NBA, good defense is an efficient offense. I agree. I'd add that in today's Western Conference, your offensive has to be both efficient and explosive.
Wiggins is not a good ball handler, but he's been good enough to get to the line at a high rate throughout his career. That's really what matters. You don't need to be Harden or Kyrie. You just have to be good enough to get to the bucket without being a turnover machine. Harden takes it to another level because he is a great passer as well so Wiggins likely won't ever be that good offensively, but can he be a secondary scorer off the dribble? Absolutely. That's actually where he's probably a best fit and he'll keep getting more effective the more he fills out his frame because he's already hard as hell to stop with his vertical being able to hang in the air longer than his opponent. Imagine when he can do that and have the physical strength to fight for even easier position while doing it.
lipoli390 wrote:Rockets beat the Warriors tonight in the Warriors' house. I've been torn all preseason between the Rockets and Thunder as to which is the 2nd best team behind the Warriors. I know it's only one game, but I'll go with the Rockets. Heck, they might give the Warriors a run for the #1 spot. Especially impressive was the fact that the Rockets won even though Chris Paul had a relatively bad game. Trever Ariza also had a relatively poor shooting night for him. Capela didn't play well either. But Tucker had 20 points and 6 boards while Eric Gordon showed again why he was last season's 6th man of the year. And of course, Harden was magnificent. He's clearly one of what I'd consider the 6 super elite players in the League along with LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, Leonard and Curry.
Looking at Harden makes, raises the following question in my mind. What makes Harden so much better than Wiggins? Neither one is good defensively. Harden's not a stellar rebounder either. Yet, unlike Wiggins, Harden typically dominates the game on the offensive end and routinely carries the Rockets to victories. Obviously, Wiggins is younger and less experienced than Harden. On the other hand, Wiggins is clearly significantly longer and more athletic. So what gives?
In answering my own question, I'm going to put aside Harden's floor vision and related passing ability, which are things Wiggins hasn't shown. And I'm not going to venture into a comparison of their competitiveness. Thibs seems convinced that Wiggins isn't lacking in competitiveness. For me, the key difference between the two that explains the gap between the two is ballhandling. Harden is a tremendous ball-handler and Wiggins is not. In fact, Wiggins still has a pretty shaky handle by NBA wing standards. If Wiggins had anything close to Harden's handle, he's be an elite player in spite of his mediocre rebounding and assist totals.
I think many of you are selling the Wolves short in comparing our roster to other Western rivals. In particular, as excited as all of us are about Jimmy Butler, I think we are actually undervaluing him. We all love Kahwi Leonard here...for good reason...but look at the comparative stats last year for Butler and Leonard. Hardly a difference, and Butler actually comes out ahead in win shares. And Thibs says in this morning's Strib that Butler looks even better than last year...he easily could be a top 5 player this season!
Add first round draft picks KAT and Wig to Butler, and only GS and OkC rival our Big 3, and our supporting cast is MUCH better than OkC's (with my sincere apologies to our friend Kiwi :))
Well done LST. The issue with Harden is his abilities defensively. Butler is a MUCH better defensive player and therefore his value as an all around player makes him a guy that could have been in the MVP discussion a lot of other years.
Which brings up another angle in comparing Harden to Wiggins. Being a good defender is a path that COULD give Wiggins some value compared to Harden and becomes an asset on that end. With a Harden you are just hoping for competence. Wiggins hasn't shown enough to say that will happen yet just the opposite but he is still young so we will see and can have SOME hope there.
Klay Thompson is a great example for Wiggins when it comes to defense. Like Wiggins, Klay is not a "do shit" player, but he absolutely sticks to people defensively and is an elite one-on-one defender in my opinion. There is zero reason Wiggins can't be as good given his foot speed and length. Hard to believe he hasn't been better.
lipoli390 wrote:Rockets beat the Warriors tonight in the Warriors' house. I've been torn all preseason between the Rockets and Thunder as to which is the 2nd best team behind the Warriors. I know it's only one game, but I'll go with the Rockets. Heck, they might give the Warriors a run for the #1 spot. Especially impressive was the fact that the Rockets won even though Chris Paul had a relatively bad game. Trever Ariza also had a relatively poor shooting night for him. Capela didn't play well either. But Tucker had 20 points and 6 boards while Eric Gordon showed again why he was last season's 6th man of the year. And of course, Harden was magnificent. He's clearly one of what I'd consider the 6 super elite players in the League along with LeBron, Durant, Westbrook, Leonard and Curry.
Looking at Harden makes, raises the following question in my mind. What makes Harden so much better than Wiggins? Neither one is good defensively. Harden's not a stellar rebounder either. Yet, unlike Wiggins, Harden typically dominates the game on the offensive end and routinely carries the Rockets to victories. Obviously, Wiggins is younger and less experienced than Harden. On the other hand, Wiggins is clearly significantly longer and more athletic. So what gives?
In answering my own question, I'm going to put aside Harden's floor vision and related passing ability, which are things Wiggins hasn't shown. And I'm not going to venture into a comparison of their competitiveness. Thibs seems convinced that Wiggins isn't lacking in competitiveness. For me, the key difference between the two that explains the gap between the two is ballhandling. Harden is a tremendous ball-handler and Wiggins is not. In fact, Wiggins still has a pretty shaky handle by NBA wing standards. If Wiggins had anything close to Harden's handle, he's be an elite player in spite of his mediocre rebounding and assist totals.
I think many of you are selling the Wolves short in comparing our roster to other Western rivals. In particular, as excited as all of us are about Jimmy Butler, I think we are actually undervaluing him. We all love Kahwi Leonard here...for good reason...but look at the comparative stats last year for Butler and Leonard. Hardly a difference, and Butler actually comes out ahead in win shares. And Thibs says in this morning's Strib that Butler looks even better than last year...he easily could be a top 5 player this season!
Add first round draft picks KAT and Wig to Butler, and only GS and OkC rival our Big 3, and our supporting cast is MUCH better than OkC's (with my sincere apologies to our friend Kiwi :))
Well done LST. The issue with Harden is his abilities defensively. Butler is a MUCH better defensive player and therefore his value as an all around player makes him a guy that could have been in the MVP discussion a lot of other years.
Which brings up another angle in comparing Harden to Wiggins. Being a good defender is a path that COULD give Wiggins some value compared to Harden and becomes an asset on that end. With a Harden you are just hoping for competence. Wiggins hasn't shown enough to say that will happen yet just the opposite but he is still young so we will see and can have SOME hope there.
Klay Thompson is a great example for Wiggins when it comes to defense. Like Wiggins, Klay is not a "do shit" player, but he absolutely sticks to people defensively and is an elite one-on-one defender in my opinion. There is zero reason Wiggins can't be as good given his foot speed and length. Hard to believe he hasn't been better.
If the question were posed who would be the better defender based on their college experience, Wig or Klay, I don't think you could have gotten anyone to bite on Klay without long odds. And yet today Klay is the better defender. I don't know what it is...effort, smarts, coaching? I honestly don't know. But I'm far from giving up on Wig as a defender. With his athletic gifts, I still think he can be at least Klay's equal...and what a difference that would make to this club.
(by the way, the same goes for KAT...and even more so.)
I think one thing that helps Klay is that he is a fairly stout player with a low center of gravity. So he isn't easily bumped off to open up space and he knows how to wall up and stay down.
I sometimes think the best defenders are often those without elite athletic gifts because they instead have to rely on fundamentals to defend: Positioning, arms straight up, don't bite on fakes, jostle guys enough to make them uncomfortable but not get called for a foul, etc.
Zach LaVine is the perfect example of a guy too athletic for his own good. He would get so befrazzled (yes, I just made that word up) on change of pace or direction moves because he would react so violently and quickly that he had no chance to recover from it. So he found himself in terrible position time and time again.
Heck, I notice this as I age and play pick-up ball. I know I can't block many shots anymore and I can't recover as easily when beat, so I focus far more on good positioning.
As for Wiggins, his problem is second effort after being screened and falling asleep when his man doesn't have the ball, thus making him vulnerable to basket cuts. But when dialed in on a guy in isolation, he's actually a pretty disciplined defender. But that is only a small percentage of playing defense.
Q12543 wrote:I think one thing that helps Klay is that he is a fairly stout player with a low center of gravity. So he isn't easily bumped off to open up space and he knows how to wall up and stay down.
I sometimes think the best defenders are often those without elite athletic gifts because they instead have to rely on fundamentals to defend: Positioning, arms straight up, don't bite on fakes, jostle guys enough to make them uncomfortable but not get called for a foul, etc.
Zach LaVine is the perfect example of a guy too athletic for his own good. He would get so befrazzled (yes, I just made that word up) on change of pace or direction moves because he would react so violently and quickly that he had no chance to recover from it. So he found himself in terrible position time and time again.
Heck, I notice this as I age and play pick-up ball. I know I can't block many shots anymore and I can't recover as easily when beat, so I focus far more on good positioning.
As for Wiggins, his problem is second effort after being screened and falling asleep when his man doesn't have the ball, thus making him vulnerable to basket cuts. But when dialed in on a guy in isolation, he's actually a pretty disciplined defender. But that is only a small percentage of playing defense.
Q - I think you zeroed in on why Wiggins has yet to be the very good defender he has the potential to be. Thibs seems to believe the Wiggins can correct the deficiencies that undermine his defensive performance. I trusting in Thibs on this.
Q12543 wrote:Lip, I guess I never really even thought about comparing Wiggins with Harden. Harden demonstrated guard-like skills going back to his college days, where he averaged over 4 assists per game as a sophomore. There is no way Wiggins can develop those kind of handles at this stage in his career.
I still think DeRozan or may be Harrison Barnes are the closest existing players to Wiggins IMO. Neither of those guys do much but score, although DeRozan has gradually become a better ball handler and passer over the years and Barnes is probably a better defender right now. I think Wiggins can still develop into a solid-defending, efficient scorer. But he'll never be the elite ball handler and play maker that Harden is.
I agree. I wonder whether its possible to compete for an NBA title without having a star who can dominate a game offensively offensively off the dribble. The Warriors have Curry and Durant who can both do that. The Rockets have Harden and Paul. The Cavs had LeBron and Kyrie last season while Boston had Thomas. The Thunder have Westbrook. Looking back through history, the last iteration of a championship Lakers team had Kobe and before that Magic Johnson. The Heat had Wade and later both Wade and LeBron. The Spurs had Tony Parker and Manu. The Bulls of course had Jordan. When the Sixers played the Lakers in the finals, the Sixers had Iverson. The list goes on.
Who fits that bill for the Wolves right now? I'd say Butler. That's why acquiring him was so huge. It's not just his defense. It's the fact that his ballhandling and other skills enable him to control and take over games offensively off the dribble. Unfortunately, in my view, he's not in the same class in that regard as Harden, Westbrook, Curry, or Durant.
I also thought last night's game illustrated the preeminence of offense in today's NBA, especially in the Western Conference. To be an elite Western Conference team, along with the Warriors, Rockets and Thunder, you have to be able to win games by scoring over 120 points as the Rockets did last night. The Warriors are an excellent defensive team, but had to score 120 points to have a chance last night. While I know the Wolves need to improve their defense over last season, I still think the bigger key for the Wolves will be further improvement in their offense. I can't think of a more defensive-oriented NBA head coach than former coach Larry Brown. A couple months ago I heard him interviewed. He talked about how the game has changed. He really caught my attention when he said that, in today's NBA, good defense is an efficient offense. I agree. I'd add that in today's Western Conference, your offensive has to be both efficient and explosive.
Wiggins is not a good ball handler, but he's been good enough to get to the line at a high rate throughout his career. That's really what matters. You don't need to be Harden or Kyrie. You just have to be good enough to get to the bucket without being a turnover machine. Harden takes it to another level because he is a great passer as well so Wiggins likely won't ever be that good offensively, but can he be a secondary scorer off the dribble? Absolutely. That's actually where he's probably a best fit and he'll keep getting more effective the more he fills out his frame because he's already hard as hell to stop with his vertical being able to hang in the air longer than his opponent. Imagine when he can do that and have the physical strength to fight for even easier position while doing it.
Kahns -- I agree with you're assessment of Wiggins potential offensive role on the Wolves as a secondary scorer off the dribble. That's consistent with my point that he doesn't have the ballhandling skills to be the primary scorer off the dribble that you see on almost all championship contenders.
As I indicated in my earlier post, that's where Butler becomes so critical to the Wolves. Butler is obviously better than Harden defensively, but my question is whether he can carry this team offensively off the dribble at the level of a Harden, Jordan, Kyrie, Leonard, etc. I think he's the only one on our roster who can potentiallydo that. I don't think he's at Harden's level offensively mainly because of 3-point shooting. But that doesn't mean he can't effectively play essentially the same role for the Wolves that Harden plays for the Rocket. I get how Butler will help the Wolves tremendously on the defensive end. My main point is that his contribution on the offensive end may be just as important.
Klay is a better athlete than he is often given credit for and a lot of that is because his game on either end isn't based on athletic ability. So much of being a good defender is mental. Klay is a very smart player. I think Wiggins is a very smart offensive player but sometimes his skills haven't caught up to what he wants to do. Defensively...idk this year we should have some clue since he will be playing with 2 guys who are very good on that end in Butler and Taj.
