Where do you stand? New Man? or Same old hot steak that's over priced?

[Monster]

Saying Wiggins regression is all Thibs fault isn't fair to him or Wiggins (he should have blame too) for possible success or failure during the time Thibs was in charge. Let's see another 10-30 games before we give credit/fault either way.

[Lipoli390]

Saying Wiggins regression is all Thibs fault isn't fair to him or Wiggins (he should have blame too) for possible success or failure during the time Thibs was in charge. Let's see another 10-30 games before we give credit/fault either way.

Monster - Who on this Board or on this earth for that matter said it was all Thibs' fault??!!

[mjs34]

It's wiggins fault, because he controls his effort level, but Thibs didn't help by giving him a max deal.

Question: What is the difference between a man and a grown ass man?

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

For me it all comes down to how he plays when we put better talent on this team in the coming years. Looking good when the opportunity allows with less talent on the team isn't what I'm interested in. We saw him put up numbers in his early years on bad teams. Can he be good as a part of a team with high end talent where he needs to fit in with other quality pieces? That's really when he regressed. When he became a third wheel piece he gave us little and good players need to find ways to get theirs while still being helpful when other talented players on the team need to get theirs as well.

[thedoper]

Giving Ryan credit for putting a system in place that makes it easier for Wiggins to succeed doesn't have to be an indictment of Thibs, it can just be a small compliment for a small sample size of work. Ryan predicted that Wiggins would have a breakout year because of the system they have in place. The improved efficiency is linked to the system changes, so is the passing. Wiggins has more opportunities to pass when he gets into the lane and the the cutters come in off a 4 out set. Ryan's prediction so far has proven correct. I think we should be encouraged but not convinced by the 10 games we've seen. He's not just trying harder (which always seemed to be the dominant solution to his problems listed here in the past), he's playing smarter and responding to his coaches ideas of what playing smarter means. Did he just randomly overcome not having a "high basketball IQ" (which was everyone's 2nd favorite criticism next to him not having a motor)?

Wiggins failure in the past was primarily a failure to hit shots, I rarely heard a targeted criticism from Thibs about his effort or ability within defensive schemes. Clearly Thibs did nothing from what we can tell to curb Wiggins reliance on the mid-range. I personally don't think Thibs was a bad coach, I do think he didn't publicly reflect that he had the time or insight to reach Wiggins or for that matter to teach the younger generation of players in an effective way. But at that point it really didn't matter, it wasn't his top priority. He was trying to salvage Jimmy and win to save his job by the end. I feel the new approach of Rosas and Ryan to extenuate Wiggins' strengths has been a huge move in the right direction.

[Leado01]

I've seen it hinted a number of times -- not just on this forum, but other platforms -- so it clearly needs to be said.

You do not get to use your relationship with your boss/superior as an excuse for why you didn't do your job. There's an independent responsibility to do the job you signed up to do regardless of who overlooks your work. Andrew Wiggins failed to do his job the last couple years and the blame falls squarely on his shoulders.

What I'm seeing from some fans is a desire to use Tom Thibodeau as the excuse for Wiggins' individual development regressing. I don't know if that makes them feel better inside or if that's a ploy to build Wiggins up in their mind, but it's a fallacy.

Wiggins seems to be an improved player based on early returns, which is very good for all parties involved. He should get the large majority of the credit for that.

And when his past is discussed, the same line of thinking should be applied. You are ultimately responsible for your own career regardless of the direction it goes, up or down. Wiggins is a grown ass man. He can handle that.

I don't known what you do for work Cam, but I would argue (and have for the last 2 years) that Wiggins was doing what he was asked to do. Mostly that was take a corner and find space as the 4th option bailout on offense, and focus on defending. He was also asked to create in the 4th having not been involved in the offense in a meaningful way.

The idea that players, or workers, careers aren't dramatically impacted by leaderships marching orders is fully bunk.

Every year I know my company's strategy changes, and it's my job to execute on that strategy whether I believe it's to my direct benefit or not.

The math isn't that hard. Wiggins numbers were good, and increased during his first three years. They decreased as Thibs offense was implemented more fully.

I think Wiggins could end up averaging 28, 5, 4 and make the allstar team and you would hold your position that he's a bum.

Right now I'm happy with the way he's playing. His assists will likely decrease when Teague returns, but that doesn't mean he's a less effective player, it means he's doing the job he's being asked to do.

[Tactical unit]

He's a new version of his old self is my early take. He's back to going downhill and attacking the basket, except this time with less dunk attempts and free throws and instead more skillful floaters and finger rolls. As for his perimeter game, he's taking more 3s and less long 2s.

I think he's definitely on track to do better than the "lost years" under Thibs, but yet to be seen if he actually takes a big leap forward as compared to his 2nd and 3rd seasons, which I consider his best. I think we'll have a better idea after the next 10 games.

I think you nailed it for the most part, Q. But I see three things in his game that look new.

First, I think we're seeing a playmaker Wiggins we've never seen before. He's seeing the floor, making reads and executing smart passes totally unlike anything we've seen from him before.

Second, his ball-handling looks like it has taken a quantum leap since last season. Most of the time (not always), he's dribbling much lower and under control. He's still using his spin move, but he's using it less and more judiciously.

Third, he's competing for rebounds and getting to loose balls far more than I've ever seen from him before. In that sense, I don't see him daydreaming on the court they way he has so often all of his previous 5 seasons.

Beyond those three differences in his game, Andrew's facial expression and body language on the court seem very different. He has a far more serious face on the court with very little of the grinning we used to see from him the previous 5 seasons. And you don't see him meandering around the court with his hands on his hips looking like he could care less whether he's playing or not.

In sum, he looks far more engaged, alert and intense than he's ever been in my memory. It's almost as if he went from heavy daily weed consumption to a daily cup of coffee. Or maybe it was three lost seasons laboring in the oppressive environment created by Thibodeau that stifled his development and caused him to tune out. I think I'd tune out if I had to work for someone like Tom Thibodeau every day. Whatever it is, I like what we've seen so far. But we'll have to see if all this continues the entire season.

We'll see Lip. While I think his ball handling and ball security is better and his passing is better, I just don't see these quantum changes that you mention. He's always been pretty good at kicking out the ball when driving. He's now just a little better. It also helps when he has the ball in his hands 75% of the time. He's just bound to get more assists.

The day he makes a pocket pass on a pick and roll is the day I start using the term quantum with him!

I think you're right that I overstated his ball-handling and passing improvement with the term quantum leap. But I think he is significantly better in those two areas, although I still see a high dribble on many of his drives and I have yet to see much more than kick outs on dribble drives. I'll stand by my observations on his significantly different on-court demeanor. But I think we all agree there's a long way to go. Whether the improvements we've seen from him so far this season are sustainable and whether he will further improve are open questions and highly debatable given his history. I read another college scouting report on Wiggins last week. Like most other reports, it highlighted Andrew's lack of intensity and effort along with his tendency to disappear in games. All those flaws plus his poor handle and bad shot-selection have been on full display for his 5 NBA seasons before this one. So we'll see. I'm hopeful, but my glass full of Wiggins cool-aid is still sitting on my counter unconsumed. :)

I took a sip of that cool-aid and it's quite sweet should I drink more or is the after taste bitter sweet?

[AbeVigodaLive]

I've seen it hinted a number of times -- not just on this forum, but other platforms -- so it clearly needs to be said.

You do not get to use your relationship with your boss/superior as an excuse for why you didn't do your job. There's an independent responsibility to do the job you signed up to do regardless of who overlooks your work. Andrew Wiggins failed to do his job the last couple years and the blame falls squarely on his shoulders.

What I'm seeing from some fans is a desire to use Tom Thibodeau as the excuse for Wiggins' individual development regressing. I don't know if that makes them feel better inside or if that's a ploy to build Wiggins up in their mind, but it's a fallacy.

Wiggins seems to be an improved player based on early returns, which is very good for all parties involved. He should get the large majority of the credit for that.

And when his past is discussed, the same line of thinking should be applied. You are ultimately responsible for your own career regardless of the direction it goes, up or down. Wiggins is a grown ass man. He can handle that.

I don't known what you do for work Cam, but I would argue (and have for the last 2 years) that Wiggins was doing what he was asked to do. Mostly that was take a corner and find space as the 4th option bailout on offense, and focus on defending. He was also asked to create in the 4th having not been involved in the offense in a meaningful way.

The idea that players, or workers, careers aren't dramatically impacted by leaderships marching orders is fully bunk.

Every year I know my company's strategy changes, and it's my job to execute on that strategy whether I believe it's to my direct benefit or not.

The math isn't that hard. Wiggins numbers were good, and increased during his first three years. They decreased as Thibs offense was implemented more fully.

I think Wiggins could end up averaging 28, 5, 4 and make the allstar team and you would hold your position that he's a bum.

Right now I'm happy with the way he's playing. His assists will likely decrease when Teague returns, but that doesn't mean he's a less effective player, it means he's doing the job he's being asked to do.

No coach in NBA history has asked a player to be significantly less effective.

Marching orders... Meh.

People continue to put entirely too much stock in NBA coaches. Whether he was just "told to stand in the corner" or not... Wiggins still took a team high 19 shots per game in year one under Thibs. He still led the team in shot attempts in year two... on a team with All NBA players Jimmy Butler and Karl Anthony Towns. And he took 16.6 attempts last season (#2).

Was it also part of Thibodeau's marching orders to shoot only 64% from the line?

For the 2,490th time... I don't want to be a fan/follower of a league where a frumpy middle-aged ogre in a suit has THAT much clout over who is good and who sucks and who wins games. NOBODY does. And guess what? That's not how the NBA works. It's never worked that way...

Players make plays. Good, engaged players make more good plays than bad players. Simple as that.

[Tactical unit]

It's wiggins fault, because he controls his effort level, but Thibs didn't help by giving him a max deal.

Question: What is the difference between a man and a grown ass man?

8 letters and a difference in tone :)

[Tactical unit]

Leadership does matter, the degree depends on the player and how leadership maximizes or limits the players and the overall group unity in following that leader. Ultimately the talent of the players and there individual skills will matter most but leadership no doubt plays a role.

A lot of posters are ridding the fence don't want to commit to one side or the other. I can't blame ya on that but in my original post I wanted to state what I was seeing and see how many others would join me in saying this is a changed player.

If you were forced to bet on him being a changed player or an overpriced max contract which side would you pick?