Wolves offseason thread

[TheFuture]

Ive not changed my stance since the trade happened. It was a mistake.

Give me Dunn/Tyus : LaVine/? : Wiggins/? : Markannen/Bjelly : KAT/Dieng all day. The ? Being our two picks we would have had this year and whoever we could sign with our cap. Grow organically and add the right pieces when we know what we have or don't have with our young talent. The trade was a square plug in a round hole deal.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

The point I can't seem to articulate well enough is that Butler is currently at his zenith in terms of value. I believe his true value to us is as a trade asset, not a player. I don't consider him a great player. He's damn good but he DOES miss a large chunk of every season. As I've often said the best ability is availability.

But the bottom line is Thibs is not going to trade Jimmy, so much of this discussion is mute. We're just going to have to see how this plays out during the season. My prediction is we will look back unfavorably on the decision to keep Jimmy at the end of the year.

His value is helping the young guys win games. It's to build a culture here that doesn't accept losing and being losers. When you trade him away you lose that and we go back to being losers which is a toxicity that has held this franchise down for over a decade. We won't win games without Jimmy on this team right now. We will be back in the lottery and the toxicity will eat away at this franchise again until it all needs to be blown up again. You are sacrificing culture for future potential and the fact is there is no future without the right culture.

So even if he leaves for nothing after this year, you're still okay with it because he helped build the culture for two years?

We are going to have a tough time making the playoffs with or without Butler. The West is that good. Especially when you can't expect Jimmy to play more than 65 games in a season, he played 59 last year.

Again this discussion really doesn't matter, he's not going to get traded. Let's just see if it ends up being a good move or a bad move. It should be easy to tell one year from now.

This may be unknowable. For one thing, what could we reasonably get for Butler right now given the salary squeeze most teams are under and the fact he can become an unrestricted free agent after this season? We'd have to somehow take matching salaries on, no? What does that look like

If he just ups and leaves after this season, that's $20M off the books. That has value. Taj's $14M also comes off the books. And so does potentially Teague's $19M. Our ability to re-tool if Butler leaves does not absolutely require we get rid of him now.

^
We're gonna have cap space if he leaves because the only long-term money on the books is Wiggins, Towns, G and maybe Tyus. That's around 30 million under the cap. Everyone else is up in the next year or two outside of our rookies who make nothing anyway given where they were drafted. Jimmy leaving for nothing isn't the worst thing in the world given the contracts on the team. And he may re-sign here so I think that is worth more than trading him for prospects that are highly likely to not work out and cause us to go right back in the lottery.

[WildWolf2813]

Ive not changed my stance since the trade happened. It was a mistake.

Give me Dunn/Tyus : LaVine/? : Wiggins/? : Markannen/Bjelly : KAT/Dieng all day. The ? Being our two picks we would have had this year and whoever we could sign with our cap. Grow organically and add the right pieces when we know what we have or don't have with our young talent. The trade was a square plug in a round hole deal.

how long were you willing to wait? Until the Wolves finally went 16 straight years missing the playoffs?


We say "grow organically," but the first year under Thibs, they didn't grow when everyone thought they would. Wiggins hasn't grown. KAT hasn't grown defensively. This team's youth is still soft. By the time you wanna add significant pieces, we'd be paying Wiggins, Towns and LaVine (and therefore, one of them might have to go anyway for a player).

Acquiring Jimmy Butler was all about credibility. The only person on this team who had that was our coach, and he's killing us now long term with his plan.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Ive not changed my stance since the trade happened. It was a mistake.

Give me Dunn/Tyus : LaVine/? : Wiggins/? : Markannen/Bjelly : KAT/Dieng all day. The ? Being our two picks we would have had this year and whoever we could sign with our cap. Grow organically and add the right pieces when we know what we have or don't have with our young talent. The trade was a square plug in a round hole deal.

how long were you willing to wait? Until the Wolves finally went 16 straight years missing the playoffs?


We say "grow organically," but the first year under Thibs, they didn't grow when everyone thought they would. Wiggins hasn't grown. KAT hasn't grown defensively. This team's youth is still soft. By the time you wanna add significant pieces, we'd be paying Wiggins, Towns and LaVine (and therefore, one of them might have to go anyway for a player).

Acquiring Jimmy Butler was all about credibility. The only person on this team who had that was our coach, and he's killing us now long term with his plan.

Tyus/Okogie/Wiggins/Patton/Towns/KBD and no more draft picks owed. How is our long-term plan getting killed? We have a whole lineup of prospects on the team. That's almost half the team right now with guys under 24.

[TheFuture]

That's the thing. You don't create "it". "It" is organic.

Believe that or not, but "it" has never been forced throughout any sport

We gave up 3 great prospects who could have developed into a 1a or 1b to bring in a guy who has the "it" factor in the hopes that he would force it into our two "cornerstones". That doesn't work. You have it or you don't. Not to mention our mentor is gone in a year.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

That's the thing. You don't create "it". "It" is organic.

Believe that or not, but "it" has never been forced throughout any sport

We gave up 3 great prospects who could have developed into a 1a or 1b to bring in a guy who has the "it" factor in the hopes that he would force it into our two "cornerstones". That doesn't work. You have it or you don't. Not to mention our mentor is gone in a year.

Great prospects is a pretty generous title for those 3. Dunn has big time attitude issues that don't nearly match the oncourt production yet. Zach has not even come close to the offensive player he should be and he's still one of the worst defenders in the league. Markannen is Ryan Anderson aka a guy who couldn't even get playing time in the playoffs for a good team. The Bulls were terrible with 2 of those guys playing big minutes. A starting lineup of Dunn/Lavine/Wiggins/Markannen/Towns would give up literally 200 points per game and be a bottom 10 team in the league. Also, how are the developing into 1a and 1b guys on a team that had a 1a and 1b guy on the team already? They would always be 3-5 and none of them have the "it" factor. The Bulls got 3 below average to average role players for a top 15 player. We won the trade.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Orlando Magic:
- SG/SF Evan Fournier (3-yrs, $51M -- P.O. in 2020-21)
- C Bismack Biyombo (2-yrs, $34M -- P.O. in 2019-20)
- SF Jonathan Simmons (2-yrs, $11.7M)

Minnesota Wolves:
- SF Andrew Wiggins (5-yrs, $146.5M)
- C Gorgui Dieng (3-yrs, $48.7M)

Posted this trade idea on Twitter with three voting options being "Magic decline", "Wolves decline", and "both teams accept" to get a gauge of how NBA writers, avid followers, and casual fans feel about it. I'm also curious as to how this forum would react to it. So far, it's a 40/40/20 split on Twitter, which in the past has told me that the value is somewhere in the right ball park -- not one-sided.

The salary hit for 2018-19 is essentially equal with the Wolves dealing with an incoming $40M and the Magic incoming $40.6M. Three things of note with this hypothetical trade idea. First, Minnesota adds a volume three-point shooter (2.2 3PM per game in 2017-18, 37.9% from 3P over last three seasons) and an overall efficient scorer (.577 TS% on 19.9 PPG Per 36) in Fournier who's still somehow just 25-years old. Secondly, Orlando swings for the fences on Wiggins' physical tools and high ceiling hoping that he can be their go-to scorer on the wing that they desperately lack. He fits in with the rest of the young Orlando core in Aaron Gordon, Mo Bamba, and Jonathan Isaac. Thirdly, Minnesota solves part of their ugly salary situation by getting out from under Wiggins' max contract and getting a shorter [bad] deal in Biyombo. And because why not, Minnesota finally adds a solid wing to come off the bench in Simmons.

Edit:

Here's what Minnesota's depth chart would look like post-trade, including draft selections and free agency additions.

PG: Jeff Teague / Tyus Jones
SG: Jimmy Butler / Derrick Rose / Josh Okogie
SF: Evan Fournier / Jonathan Simmons / Keita Bates-Diop
PF: Taj Gibson / Anthony Tolliver
C: Karl-Anthony Towns / Bismack Biyombo / Justin Patton

[Monster]

Orlando Magic:
- SG/SF Evan Fournier (3-yrs, $51M -- P.O. in 2020-21)
- C Bismack Biyombo (2-yrs, $34M -- P.O. in 2019-20)
- SF Jonathan Simmons (2-yrs, $11.7M)

Minnesota Wolves:
- SF Andrew Wiggins (5-yrs, $146.5M)
- C Gorgui Dieng (3-yrs, $48.7M)

Posted this trade idea on Twitter with three voting options being "Magic decline", "Wolves decline", and "both teams accept" to get a gauge of how NBA writers, avid followers, and casual fans feel about it. I'm also curious as to how this forum would react to it. So far, it's a 40/40/20 split on Twitter, which in the past has told me that the value is somewhere in the right ball park -- not one-sided.

The salary hit for 2018-19 is essentially equal with the Wolves dealing with an incoming $40M and the Magic incoming $40.6M. Three things of note with this hypothetical trade idea. First, Minnesota adds a volume three-point shooter (2.2 3PM per game in 2017-18, 37.9% from 3P over last three seasons) and an overall efficient scorer (.577 TS% on 19.9 PPG Per 36) in Fournier who's still somehow just 25-years old. Secondly, Orlando swings for the fences on Wiggins' physical tools and high ceiling hoping that he can be their go-to scorer on the wing that they desperately lack. He fits in with the rest of the young Orlando core in Aaron Gordon, Mo Bamba, and Jonathan Isaac. Thirdly, Minnesota solves part of their ugly salary situation by getting out from under Wiggins' max contract and getting a shorter [bad] deal in Biyombo. And because why not, Minnesota finally adds a solid wing to come off the bench in Simmons.

Edit:

Here's what Minnesota's depth chart would look like post-trade, including draft selections and free agency additions.

PG: Jeff Teague / Tyus Jones
SG: Jimmy Butler / Derrick Rose / Josh Okogie
SF: Evan Fournier / Jonathan Simmons / Keita Bates-Diop
PF: Taj Gibson / Anthony Tolliver
C: Karl-Anthony Towns / Bismack Biyombo / Justin Patton

Seems like a fairly well though our trade. To me the things that make me question Orlando saying yes are:

1. Their lack of shooting might be more than even the Wolves. In this deal they lose one.

2. They take on a lot of long term money. Sure maybe that doesn't matter (will they be able to sign anyone etc) but teams still often don't want to do it. They would have to feel like Wiggins was worth giving up all that space espcially 3 years from now when they would be in line to pay Dieng and Wiggins a combined approximately 46.5 million bucks in that season over what they have on the books now. Obviously a guy like Fournier if they wanted to keep him around if they didn't make this deal would cut into that number but they could move on for someone else etc.

For the Wolves side of the deal it depends on how done you are with Wiggins and how you value Fournier. I'd have to have watched more of Fournier to seriously consider this deal but even as a Wiggins optimist I think this is something I might actually consider. Looking at it more the fact that Fournier struggles with injuries gives me more pause. I think my question about him is will he be able to thrive as a guy that doesn't have to create as much for himself or is he another guy that needs the ball and doesnt do as well without it.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I say no to that deal. I'm not trading Wiggins for bench pieces and a borderline starter in Fournier. With Jimmy being able to leave, that's just a disaster if Towns is the only one left going into next year. Towns/Wiggins is still recoverable and can be built around if Jimmy leaves. I would want either Gordon or Isaac back in the deal or I would say no deal. It doesn't make us better in any significant way and makes the future outlook bleaker when we need to be trying to convince Jimmy to stay.

[Lipoli390]

I say no to that deal. I'm not trading Wiggins for bench pieces and a borderline starter in Fournier. With Jimmy being able to leave, that's just a disaster if Towns is the only one left going into next year. Towns/Wiggins is still recoverable and can be built around if Jimmy leaves. I would want either Gordon or Isaac back in the deal or I would say no deal. It doesn't make us better in any significant way and makes the future outlook bleaker when we need to be trying to convince Jimmy to stay.

It's a close call for me. Bottom line for me right now is that I wound't make any major deals involving Wiggins or Towns while Thibodeau is still here. But even if I were so inclined, I think I'd lean against this deal for the reasons you gave. Also, as down as everyone is on Gorgui, I don't think he's someone we should just give away for salary savings.