Wolves offseason thread

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Cam and Hicks...I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, at least with respect to Wiggins. Many of us are frustrated when his level of effort appears so inconsistent. But my issue is his criticism of KAT. Yes, KAT needs to improve on the defensive side of the ball, and I would have no problem with a veteran like Butler calling this out privately and publicly. But Jon K's report was that Butler called KAT out for his effort, and I think that is unfair and misguided. KAT plays hard all the time, and I see little difference between his effort and Jimmy's. Butler's criticism also seems hollow in light of KAT playing 82 games last year and Butler only 59. Perhaps KAT should come out on social media and criticize Butler for taking off more than1/4 of the season.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Cam and Hicks...I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, at least with respect to Wiggins. Many of us are frustrated when his level of effort appears so inconsistent. But my issue is his criticism of KAT. Yes, KAT needs to improve on the defensive side of the ball, and I would have no problem with a veteran like Butler calling this out privately and publicly. But Jon K's report was that Butler called KAT out for his effort, and I think that is unfair and misguided. KAT plays hard all the time, and I see little difference between his effort and Jimmy's. Butler's criticism also seems hollow in light of KAT playing 82 games last year and Butler only 59. Perhaps KAT should come out on social media and criticize Butler for taking off more than1/4 of the season.

Lol he tore his fucking meniscus and you talk about it like it was some Kawhi bullshit where he was choosing not to play. KAT plays hard to get his stats. That's why he's always whiffing on terrible block attempts rather than actually play good defense. That's a better motor than Wiggins, but that still isn't the effort that needs to be there on the defensive side of the ball.

[Monster]

Cam and Hicks...I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, at least with respect to Wiggins. Many of us are frustrated when his level of effort appears so inconsistent. But my issue is his criticism of KAT. Yes, KAT needs to improve on the defensive side of the ball, and I would have no problem with a veteran like Butler calling this out privately and publicly. But Jon K's report was that Butler called KAT out for his effort, and I think that is unfair and misguided. KAT plays hard all the time, and I see little difference between his effort and Jimmy's. Butler's criticism also seems hollow in light of KAT playing 82 games last year and Butler only 59. Perhaps KAT should come out on social media and criticize Butler for taking off more than1/4 of the season.

Lol he tore his fucking meniscus and you talk about it like it was some Kawhi bullshit where he was choosing not to play. KAT plays hard to get his stats. That's why he's always whiffing on terrible block attempts rather than actually play good defense. That's a better motor than Wiggins, but that still isn't the effort that needs to be there on the defensive side of the ball.

It simply sucks Butler misses games but it's not because the guy doesn't work hard or doesn't want to be out there. Is certainly a negative about him but rarely question his commitment to the game. Even Towns I do but I think it's because he hasn't figured it out not because he doesn't want to. Wiggins is a completely different story. I don't think he and Towns when it comes to wffort should be compared. It's a different conversation all together. No player is gonna (or should) give 100% every minute out there.

LST did you listen to Jon K's latest podcast? He really listed out the nuances of what has frustrated Butler with Wiggins and/or Towns.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Cam and Hicks...I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, at least with respect to Wiggins. Many of us are frustrated when his level of effort appears so inconsistent. But my issue is his criticism of KAT. Yes, KAT needs to improve on the defensive side of the ball, and I would have no problem with a veteran like Butler calling this out privately and publicly. But Jon K's report was that Butler called KAT out for his effort, and I think that is unfair and misguided. KAT plays hard all the time, and I see little difference between his effort and Jimmy's. Butler's criticism also seems hollow in light of KAT playing 82 games last year and Butler only 59. Perhaps KAT should come out on social media and criticize Butler for taking off more than1/4 of the season.

Lol he tore his fucking meniscus and you talk about it like it was some Kawhi bullshit where he was choosing not to play. KAT plays hard to get his stats. That's why he's always whiffing on terrible block attempts rather than actually play good defense. That's a better motor than Wiggins, but that still isn't the effort that needs to be there on the defensive side of the ball.

It simply sucks Butler misses games but it's not because the guy doesn't work hard or doesn't want to be out there. Is certainly a negative about him but rarely question his commitment to the game. Even Towns I do but I think it's because he hasn't figured it out not because he doesn't want to. Wiggins is a completely different story. I don't think he and Towns when it comes to wffort should be compared. It's a different conversation all together. No player is gonna (or should) give 100% every minute out there.

LST did you listen to Jon K's latest podcast? He really listed out the nuances of what has frustrated Butler with Wiggins and/or Towns.

I think with KAT one of the frustrations is that he gives "selfish effort", as I don't know any other way to put it. For example, how often has he worked hard to get a paint bucket, only to be thwarted by the defense. But instead of hustling back in transition D he's turning to the official to complain and slow to get back? Or worse, he's still in the process of dramatizing the foul he thought was committed and flopping around the baseline while the other team is going the other way.

Another example is his useless attempts to block shots that are already well on their way. How often does he (and Dieng has this problem too) leave his feet or tumble to the ground instead of walling up and staying square. It's not sexy but this is what the best interior defenders do. That's all about being smart versus giving maximum effort.

[Monster]

Someone posted that Jimmy is gonna be on Bill Simmons podcast next week. That should be interesting (Butler is always a little interesting) espcially since the few podcasts including the one with Butler last summer Simmons seems plenty willing to ask some tougher questions.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Someone posted that Jimmy is gonna be on Bill Simmons podcast next week. That should be interesting (Butler is always a little interesting) espcially since the few podcasts including the one with Butler last summer Simmons seems plenty willing to ask some tougher questions.

Considering how Simmons has built a website/business in part based around today's 24/7/365 NBA gossip culture... I'm sure he'll be pining to know more about Butler's inevitable intentions to make his impending free agency part of a branding campaign, contract negotiations and subsequent clownshow.

[Lipoli390]

Cam and Hicks...I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, at least with respect to Wiggins. Many of us are frustrated when his level of effort appears so inconsistent. But my issue is his criticism of KAT. Yes, KAT needs to improve on the defensive side of the ball, and I would have no problem with a veteran like Butler calling this out privately and publicly. But Jon K's report was that Butler called KAT out for his effort, and I think that is unfair and misguided. KAT plays hard all the time, and I see little difference between his effort and Jimmy's. Butler's criticism also seems hollow in light of KAT playing 82 games last year and Butler only 59. Perhaps KAT should come out on social media and criticize Butler for taking off more than1/4 of the season.

Lol he tore his fucking meniscus and you talk about it like it was some Kawhi bullshit where he was choosing not to play. KAT plays hard to get his stats. That's why he's always whiffing on terrible block attempts rather than actually play good defense. That's a better motor than Wiggins, but that still isn't the effort that needs to be there on the defensive side of the ball.

It simply sucks Butler misses games but it's not because the guy doesn't work hard or doesn't want to be out there. Is certainly a negative about him but rarely question his commitment to the game. Even Towns I do but I think it's because he hasn't figured it out not because he doesn't want to. Wiggins is a completely different story. I don't think he and Towns when it comes to wffort should be compared. It's a different conversation all together. No player is gonna (or should) give 100% every minute out there.

LST did you listen to Jon K's latest podcast? He really listed out the nuances of what has frustrated Butler with Wiggins and/or Towns.

I think with KAT one of the frustrations is that he gives "selfish effort", as I don't know any other way to put it. For example, how often has he worked hard to get a paint bucket, only to be thwarted by the defense. But instead of hustling back in transition D he's turning to the official to complain and slow to get back? Or worse, he's still in the process of dramatizing the foul he thought was committed and flopping around the baseline while the other team is going the other way.

Another example is his useless attempts to block shots that are already well on their way. How often does he (and Dieng has this problem too) leave his feet or tumble to the ground instead of walling up and staying square. It's not sexy but this is what the best interior defenders do. That's all about being smart versus giving maximum effort.

Q - I think you got it right attributing KAT's defensive deficiencies to lack of smarts rather than lack of effort. I'll quibble with your "selfish effort" characterization. Arguing with officials rather than getting back right away is something I'd attribute to immaturity combined with intensity. Kevin Love did that all the time when he was here. It's a natural reaction to the frustration of constantly getting beat up in the paint without getting calls veterans typically get. I wish Wiggins would show that sort of passion. When Wiggins repeatedly fails to get back I wish it was because he's pissed and arguing with officials instead of what looks like daydreaming. Note also that KAT substantially curtailed his arguing and did a much better job getting back as the season wore on. KAT needs to mature and get smarter. But at age 22 that shouldn't be a surprise. Trying to attribute KAT's shortcomings to effort seems really strained to me.

[Lipoli390]

Cam and Hicks...I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, at least with respect to Wiggins. Many of us are frustrated when his level of effort appears so inconsistent. But my issue is his criticism of KAT. Yes, KAT needs to improve on the defensive side of the ball, and I would have no problem with a veteran like Butler calling this out privately and publicly. But Jon K's report was that Butler called KAT out for his effort, and I think that is unfair and misguided. KAT plays hard all the time, and I see little difference between his effort and Jimmy's. Butler's criticism also seems hollow in light of KAT playing 82 games last year and Butler only 59. Perhaps KAT should come out on social media and criticize Butler for taking off more than1/4 of the season.

Lol he tore his fucking meniscus and you talk about it like it was some Kawhi bullshit where he was choosing not to play. KAT plays hard to get his stats. That's why he's always whiffing on terrible block attempts rather than actually play good defense. That's a better motor than Wiggins, but that still isn't the effort that needs to be there on the defensive side of the ball.

It simply sucks Butler misses games but it's not because the guy doesn't work hard or doesn't want to be out there. Is certainly a negative about him but rarely question his commitment to the game. Even Towns I do but I think it's because he hasn't figured it out not because he doesn't want to. Wiggins is a completely different story. I don't think he and Towns when it comes to wffort should be compared. It's a different conversation all together. No player is gonna (or should) give 100% every minute out there.

LST did you listen to Jon K's latest podcast? He really listed out the nuances of what has frustrated Butler with Wiggins and/or Towns.

Monster - I listened to the podcast. I think Jon went a little too far out of his way to reflect or understand Jimmy's thinking. The bottom line is this. Crowley reported that Jimmy didn't like KAT's effort. Jimmy hasn't modified or repudiated the report, which should lead us to conclude that Butler was indeed criticizing KAT's effort. After watching KAT up close for over 120 games, listening to Jim Peterson and knowing how much KG likes KAT as a player, Jimmy's criticism doesn't hold up. But even worse is the fact that Jimmy delivered his misplaced criticism publicly and indirectly through a media crony, followed by an overly cute nondenial video post. That is slimy, punk behavior.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Cam and Hicks...I don't disagree with much of what you are saying, at least with respect to Wiggins. Many of us are frustrated when his level of effort appears so inconsistent. But my issue is his criticism of KAT. Yes, KAT needs to improve on the defensive side of the ball, and I would have no problem with a veteran like Butler calling this out privately and publicly. But Jon K's report was that Butler called KAT out for his effort, and I think that is unfair and misguided. KAT plays hard all the time, and I see little difference between his effort and Jimmy's. Butler's criticism also seems hollow in light of KAT playing 82 games last year and Butler only 59. Perhaps KAT should come out on social media and criticize Butler for taking off more than1/4 of the season.

Lol he tore his fucking meniscus and you talk about it like it was some Kawhi bullshit where he was choosing not to play. KAT plays hard to get his stats. That's why he's always whiffing on terrible block attempts rather than actually play good defense. That's a better motor than Wiggins, but that still isn't the effort that needs to be there on the defensive side of the ball.

It simply sucks Butler misses games but it's not because the guy doesn't work hard or doesn't want to be out there. Is certainly a negative about him but rarely question his commitment to the game. Even Towns I do but I think it's because he hasn't figured it out not because he doesn't want to. Wiggins is a completely different story. I don't think he and Towns when it comes to wffort should be compared. It's a different conversation all together. No player is gonna (or should) give 100% every minute out there.

LST did you listen to Jon K's latest podcast? He really listed out the nuances of what has frustrated Butler with Wiggins and/or Towns.

I think with KAT one of the frustrations is that he gives "selfish effort", as I don't know any other way to put it. For example, how often has he worked hard to get a paint bucket, only to be thwarted by the defense. But instead of hustling back in transition D he's turning to the official to complain and slow to get back? Or worse, he's still in the process of dramatizing the foul he thought was committed and flopping around the baseline while the other team is going the other way.

Another example is his useless attempts to block shots that are already well on their way. How often does he (and Dieng has this problem too) leave his feet or tumble to the ground instead of walling up and staying square. It's not sexy but this is what the best interior defenders do. That's all about being smart versus giving maximum effort.

Q - I think you got it right attributing KAT's defensive deficiencies to lack of smarts rather than lack of effort. I'll quibble with your "selfish effort" characterization. Arguing with officials rather than getting back right away is something I'd attribute to immaturity combined with intensity. Kevin Love did that all the time when he was her. It's a natural reaction to the frustration of constantly getting beat up in the paint without getting calls veterans typically get. I wish Wiggins would shoot that sort of passion. When Wiggins repeatedly fails to get back I wish it was because he's pissed and arguing with officials instead of what looks like daydreaming. Note also that KAT substantially curtailed his arguing and for a much better job getting back as the season wore on. KAT needs to mature and get smarter. But at age 22 that shouldn't be a surprise. Trying to attribute KAT's shortcomings to effort seems really strained to me.

To me the way he defends the PnR is the laziest way possible. He doesn't hedge at all and just sits in no mans land giving the ball handler every offensive option in the arsenal that play allows. Then the ball handler drives and shoots a floater over him and he jumps out of his shoes for an impossible block attempt and accomplishes nothing defensively. And it's been 3 years of that. There's no effort in standing in no man's land and then whiffing on a block. That's fake effort. Real effort defensively is hedging the ball handler and getting back to your man or switching and playing 1 on 1. It's not jumping out of your shoes for impossible blocks, but stepping up and holding your ground. These are things you should know 3 years into the league as the defensive anchor especially after playing with KG and Taj and under Thibs. I don't expect it every play, but he barely ever makes the extra effort defensive play to stifle a possession. So you might not see it as an effort issue, but I see it as him playing the easiest way to look like he's doing something when he's actually accomplishing nothing. This is an important year because if you can't defend effectively under Thibs for 3 years it's on you at that point.

[thedoper]

I still don't get how KAT's effort can't be criticized but Wiggins' can. It's silly. KAT completely shits the bed on routine and get's out worked by bigs who crash the glass (see Capela in the playoffs). The fact is they're both young and learning what it takes to be successful in the league. I see growth from both of them, albeit slow growth. Jimmy is right in criticizing both of them, but has no idea how to turn criticism into a change of behavior with his public display. I think both KAT and Wiggins probably believe they're giving it their all because they work hard in practice, in the off season, and have a lot of responsibility for young players during games. You can't expect them to know anything outside of their experience. I wish Jimmy would be more open and invite KAT and Wiggins to work with him all summer, but it's not in his nature right now. Ultimately I see everything as very simple communication issues that will be solved once they all see eachother. This team simply needs to get back into training camp and pre-camp workout and hash it out. Too much boredom right now.