WolvesFan21 wrote:Sports and specifically the highest level in professional sports the expectations have to be higher. If you are accepting with "just making the playoffs" or "winning so many games" you are not going to achieve the desired result. Which of course is winning a Championship.
Without a top echelon coach or several top echelon players you certainly are not gong to contend. The passing grade has to be "are you on the path to winning a championship." If not, keep looking for a coach and players who will get you there.
With the poor development of the defense this past season, I blame a lot of that on Thibs not getting the most out of the players. Will Thibs win a Championship here, is he on the path? If you don't think so, you should fire him. Missing the playoffs for the last 14 years is irrelevant. It's about how you are performing today.
Sports is also about entertainment. And this fanbase was desperate for a playoff berth. The Wolves had one of the longest droughts in all of pro sports.
Expectations can change from year to year. Sometimes, that's a championship. But it's just not a tenable, realistic goal for most teams most seasons.
And that's when it becomes a hollow mantra that really doesn't mean anything.
9 teams out of 30 have won the title since 1999. Championship or bust just isn't reasonable for a majority of the league. There's only one guy in the league that changes your title odds overnight so I don't see how it's reasonable to expect teams to go from bottom dweller to contender in the 2 years Thibs has had. If you want to be title or bust, you at least need to allow adequate time to build that team. Expecting it overnight is just unreasonable and unfair for fans to put on a coach or organization.
I didn't expect them to win the championship I said on the path to winning it. We saw zero improvement in the defense from Pre-Thibs to now. I don't think we are progressing at a rate that will contend within the next year or two. If you think the team is on a path to winning it then so be it, I just disagree. I think we needed to see some defensive improvement, and we really haven't.
I think we need a better coach.
How can you just outright claim we aren't on the path to winning a title after a 16 win improvement? How does a team improve 16 wins in one off-season and then all of a sudden they are just capped and have 0 chance at contending with that roster? Literally all it would take is Towns to figure out how to anchor the defense decently and that changes the whole way we could play defense. We'd become the 3rd best team in the league in that scenario and then you are just injury luck away from possibly contending. That's not a crazy out of this world path to improvement. It's very possible if KAT puts on some muscle and studies some tape to figure out how to position and wall up better as the anchor that we move into the top 10-15 defensively and now you have a top 10 offense and defense. It very well could be Thibs who holds us back at the end of the day, but right now it's still on the true franchise player to take his game to the next level to take the team to the next level. We have the offense. He needs to shore up the defense and everyone else will look better as a result. If that happens we're a contender in the next 2 years.
Team wins 16 more games.... even as the guy the team gives $150M max deal to before the season plateaus or even regresses...
... coach and/or GM to blame for no longer being on championship path.
WolvesFan21 wrote:Sports and specifically the highest level in professional sports the expectations have to be higher. If you are accepting with "just making the playoffs" or "winning so many games" you are not going to achieve the desired result. Which of course is winning a Championship.
Without a top echelon coach or several top echelon players you certainly are not gong to contend. The passing grade has to be "are you on the path to winning a championship." If not, keep looking for a coach and players who will get you there.
With the poor development of the defense this past season, I blame a lot of that on Thibs not getting the most out of the players. Will Thibs win a Championship here, is he on the path? If you don't think so, you should fire him. Missing the playoffs for the last 14 years is irrelevant. It's about how you are performing today.
Sports is also about entertainment. And this fanbase was desperate for a playoff berth. The Wolves had one of the longest droughts in all of pro sports.
Expectations can change from year to year. Sometimes, that's a championship. But it's just not a tenable, realistic goal for most teams most seasons.
And that's when it becomes a hollow mantra that really doesn't mean anything.
9 teams out of 30 have won the title since 1999. Championship or bust just isn't reasonable for a majority of the league. There's only one guy in the league that changes your title odds overnight so I don't see how it's reasonable to expect teams to go from bottom dweller to contender in the 2 years Thibs has had. If you want to be title or bust, you at least need to allow adequate time to build that team. Expecting it overnight is just unreasonable and unfair for fans to put on a coach or organization.
I didn't expect them to win the championship I said on the path to winning it. We saw zero improvement in the defense from Pre-Thibs to now. I don't think we are progressing at a rate that will contend within the next year or two. If you think the team is on a path to winning it then so be it, I just disagree. I think we needed to see some defensive improvement, and we really haven't.
I think we need a better coach.
How can you just outright claim we aren't on the path to winning a title after a 16 win improvement? How does a team improve 16 wins in one off-season and then all of a sudden they are just capped and have 0 chance at contending with that roster? Literally all it would take is Towns to figure out how to anchor the defense decently and that changes the whole way we could play defense. We'd become the 3rd best team in the league in that scenario and then you are just injury luck away from possibly contending. That's not a crazy out of this world path to improvement. It's very possible if KAT puts on some muscle and studies some tape to figure out how to position and wall up better as the anchor that we move into the top 10-15 defensively and now you have a top 10 offense and defense. It very well could be Thibs who holds us back at the end of the day, but right now it's still on the true franchise player to take his game to the next level to take the team to the next level. We have the offense. He needs to shore up the defense and everyone else will look better as a result. If that happens we're a contender in the next 2 years.
Sure but we haven't seen it. That is the problem. Maybe I or we should place more blame on the players but we can't change the best ones we have, it certainly doesn't make sense. I think we should have seen better defense and we haven't, so maybe a different coach can.
As far as the 16 win improvement, well, we had 3 new starters, it was expected after trading youth for experience. Two of which play very good defense, yet we stunk on defense.
WolvesFan21 wrote:As far as the 16 win improvement, well, we had 3 new starters, it was expected after trading youth for experience. Two of which play very good defense, yet we stunk on defense.
The whole league stinks at defense now. The best defense this year was a half point worse than the previous year which was a full 4.3 points worse than the year before. Offenses are getting better and more efficient. The difference between us and the top 10 defensively is less than 4 points per game. That's 2 buckets in the grander scheme of a game. It's not some massive gap. Our starting unit defensively is solid at 104.2. That would net them the 8th best defense in the league if the rest of the team could keep up. The issue has and seems to continue to be the bench. Jamal being gone should significantly help the bench defense improve. Now we just need someone to replace Dieng and I think we would see a big turnaround in our team defensive performance. I don't think we are far off. Teague, Butler and Gibson netted us a 5.5 point improvement defensively and 5.3 point improvement offensively over last year's starters. That's a 10.8 net rating improvement with those moves. Get them a competent bench and I think we'll see even bigger strides as a team this year.
monsterpile wrote:Objectively does anyone have a problem with letting Patton the shooting coach go? I mean it seemed like at least a sold hire at the time and a shooting coach sounds good but...I don't think you can say the Wolves improved as a shooting team while he was here. Maybe he needed another year to make the difference...or maybe we can just have guys work with others like having Wiggins work more with his trainer Drew Hanlen.
Nope, I have no problem at all replacing the shooting coach if the team doesn't shoot well...even after improving several wins and making the playoffs. Similarly, I don't think any of us should have a problem replacing a supposed defensive-specialist head coach after finishing near the bottom in defensive metrics two years in a row. After all, isn't defense a bigger problem for the Wolves than shooting?
A head coach is paid for wins not metrics.
Maybe Doper. But I think coaches, both head and assistant, are retained or fired based on performance against the decision maker's expectations. Presumably, Thibs concluded his expectations regarding shooting were not being met, even though our 46% shooting ranked us 8th in the league. Glen's public post-season remarks make it clear that while he is pleased the team made the playoffs, he clearly expected more this year. I'm sure Glen hired Thibs with an expectation that our defense would improve, and that expectation likely only increased when he paid to bring in two defensive stalwarts in Butler and Gibson. He can't be very pleased with how our defense has responded to Thibs.
I think evaluating for style is a bit strange in a industry where the objective goal is wins. But Taylor is a strange dude so maybe you got some accurate insight to his thinking. Not how I would run this business. But entertainment is a part of a sports franchise so that should play some factor I guess.
I don't think Glen Taylor's expectations were entangled in style of play. Glen stated plainly post-season that he expected this team to finish in the top 4, not 8th and one game against Denver from failing to make the playoffs.
Nothing strange or unreasonable in that expectation. When Glen hired Thibodeau he likely expected that his head coach would get the most out of the team's talent and get the players to collectively overachieve. That's what the elite coaches do and Glen appropriately thought that's what he was getting in Thibodeau. Yet, Thibodeau did no better than Sam Mitchell coaching the same but more experienced young team, which Thibodeau himself called "the best young roster in the NBA." Then Thibodeau substantially changed the roster to his liking last summer, spending every dime of the considerable cap space at his disposal. Yet, the team fell behind 7 other teams in the West.
We can debate whether 47 wins was acceptable given the talent on this team. I think it's entirely reasonable to have expected more from this roster. I certainly expected more as did Glen. And it's appropriate to hold the head coach accountable for failing to meet those expectations - especially when the head coach had free reign to shape the roster to his liking.
Objectively didn't this team get the over on what Vegas predicted? That's something I mean this team...if most of us bet would have bankrupted most of us by now and we would all be posting from computers at the local library. Lol
Lol. Good point, Monster. I learned long ago not to bet on basketball. Too much emotion. :). Honestly, whether the Wolves should have won more games and finished higher in the standings this past season is a matter of opinion. But I put this past season together the the previous season and I don't see a coach getting his team to overachieve. I see Thibodeau as a mediocre head coach and that's not good enough for me. I suspect that Glen sees it the same way given what he's paying Thibodeau and that fact that he gave him both positions. That's where I'm at now and I think it's a reasonable position. I hope to be proven wrong this next season. :)
monsterpile wrote:Objectively does anyone have a problem with letting Patton the shooting coach go? I mean it seemed like at least a sold hire at the time and a shooting coach sounds good but...I don't think you can say the Wolves improved as a shooting team while he was here. Maybe he needed another year to make the difference...or maybe we can just have guys work with others like having Wiggins work more with his trainer Drew Hanlen.
Nope, I have no problem at all replacing the shooting coach if the team doesn't shoot well...even after improving several wins and making the playoffs. Similarly, I don't think any of us should have a problem replacing a supposed defensive-specialist head coach after finishing near the bottom in defensive metrics two years in a row. After all, isn't defense a bigger problem for the Wolves than shooting?
A head coach is paid for wins not metrics.
Maybe Doper. But I think coaches, both head and assistant, are retained or fired based on performance against the decision maker's expectations. Presumably, Thibs concluded his expectations regarding shooting were not being met, even though our 46% shooting ranked us 8th in the league. Glen's public post-season remarks make it clear that while he is pleased the team made the playoffs, he clearly expected more this year. I'm sure Glen hired Thibs with an expectation that our defense would improve, and that expectation likely only increased when he paid to bring in two defensive stalwarts in Butler and Gibson. He can't be very pleased with how our defense has responded to Thibs.
I think evaluating for style is a bit strange in a industry where the objective goal is wins. But Taylor is a strange dude so maybe you got some accurate insight to his thinking. Not how I would run this business. But entertainment is a part of a sports franchise so that should play some factor I guess.
I don't think Glen Taylor's expectations were entangled in style of play. Glen stated plainly post-season that he expected this team to finish in the top 4, not 8th and one game against Denver from failing to make the playoffs.
Nothing strange or unreasonable in that expectation. When Glen hired Thibodeau he likely expected that his head coach would get the most out of the team's talent and get the players to collectively overachieve. That's what the elite coaches do and Glen appropriately thought that's what he was getting in Thibodeau. Yet, Thibodeau did no better than Sam Mitchell coaching the same but more experienced young team, which Thibodeau himself called "the best young roster in the NBA." Then Thibodeau substantially changed the roster to his liking last summer, spending every dime of the considerable cap space at his disposal. Yet, the team fell behind 7 other teams in the West.
We can debate whether 47 wins was acceptable given the talent on this team. I think it's entirely reasonable to have expected more from this roster. I certainly expected more as did Glen. And it's appropriate to hold the head coach accountable for failing to meet those expectations - especially when the head coach had free reign to shape the roster to his liking.
It is reasonable to expect more. I did. But to fire would be completely unreasonable in my opinion, it shouldn't even be in the conversation. We were two games out of top 4. No one predicted that many teams to be above 45 wins.
I think that a coach's responsibility is to make a gameplan that gives your team a chance to win. Thibs has done that in an overwhelming majority of the games he has coached while here. I think the upgrade from Mitchell has been noticeable in this area. Coach gives the players the opportunity to execute. How many games did we have no chance in this season? Like 10? Our players folded like a house of cards under pressure in Thibs 1st season. This season there was improvement.
I am simply addressing that Thibs in no way should have incurred a dismissal from his performance this year. If I were his boss I'd give him a favorable review with some areas of improvement to work on. Anything else is unreasonable in my mind.
I've come around to your position that it would be premature to fire Thibodeau at this juncture. I would give him a passing grade, but not a favorable review. So I'm obviously not as positive about him as you are. But winning 47 games, making the playoffs and winning one playoff game against the Rockets is enough in my view to bring him back for another season. On that we agree.
Trade with the Magic
Teague and Aldrich for Fournier and DJ Augustin
Trade with Hawks
Gorgui and #20 for Bazemore
Rotation
Tyus/Rose or Augustin based on what you want to do with Rose
Butler/Fournier/Augustin/MGH
Wiggins/Bazemore/MGH
Taj/Belly/Jefferson
KAT/Patton/MLE (Noel, Ed Davis, Deadmond)
Maybe a less shake up trade but could work out
Aldrich for Norman Powell.
Still a young player with potential upside, was out of the rotation in Toronto and the trade gets the Raptors out of the Lux tax.
In all I am just bored, the 1st set of trades could get us a very good bench, improves the 3pt shooting a lot, and overall I think we would have a very well rounded roster. Downside is we have some big contract bench players in Bazemore and Fournier, no 1st round pick, so no young cheap talent. Also we are putting a lot of faith in Tyus is ready to take over the starting job on a playoff team or Rose continuing to show his promise like in the playoffs. Augustine was very good this year though, and knows thibs system, perfect backup if we would go away from Teague.
The 2nd trade, just taking a flyer on a young guy who showed some promise the last year. We are really giving up no asset in the trade. The downside is, that Powell is what he is, couldn't make the rotation in Toronto this year and if he stalls out on improvement potential 9 mil in dead salary.
Trade with the Magic
Teague and Aldrich for Fournier and DJ Augustin
Trade with Hawks
Gorgui and #20 for Bazemore
Rotation
Tyus/Rose or Augustin based on what you want to do with Rose
Butler/Fournier/Augustin/MGH
Wiggins/Bazemore/MGH
Taj/Belly/Jefferson
KAT/Patton/MLE (Noel, Ed Davis, Deadmond)
Maybe a less shake up trade but could work out
Aldrich for Norman Powell.
Still a young player with potential upside, was out of the rotation in Toronto and the trade gets the Raptors out of the Lux tax.
In all I am just bored, the 1st set of trades could get us a very good bench, improves the 3pt shooting a lot, and overall I think we would have a very well rounded roster. Downside is we have some big contract bench players in Bazemore and Fournier, no 1st round pick, so no young cheap talent. Also we are putting a lot of faith in Tyus is ready to take over the starting job on a playoff team or Rose continuing to show his promise like in the playoffs. Augustine was very good this year though, and knows thibs system, perfect backup if we would go away from Teague.
The 2nd trade, just taking a flyer on a young guy who showed some promise the last year. We are really giving up no asset in the trade. The downside is, that Powell is what he is, couldn't make the rotation in Toronto this year and if he stalls out on improvement potential 9 mil in dead salary.
I like deal with Orlando - Teague and Aldrich for Fournier and Augustin. But I don't like the others. I wouldn't give up the #20 pick for a rotation bench player even though I like Bazemore. This franchise needs to start drafting and developing rotation players - - maybe even a starter or two, perhaps an allstar caliber player, like the elite teams do with mid-first round picks. We've gotten older and we're capped out on the threshold of the luxury tax. That means we need an infusion of youth and some new players on the rookie salary scale. The only way I'd trade a a 1st round pick (unless we have multiple first rounders) is as part of a package to get an allstar caliber player -- like including #20 with Wiggins for K. Leonard, although I'm wary of that particular deal given Leonard's injury history.
I think powell would be a sneaky pick up. He fell out of favor because he was too small to defend sfs on a nightly basis and was often stuck on the opposing teams besr wing player to try and cover for dd.
On the wolves, he doesn't have that burden. Hed be primarily on small wings and doesnt need the ball a whole lot on offense.
He was a bulldog on defense up until this past season.
crazy-canuck wrote:I think powell would be a sneaky pick up. He fell out of favor because he was too small to defend sfs on a nightly basis and was often stuck on the opposing teams besr wing player to try and cover for dd.
On the wolves, he doesn't have that burden. Hed be primarily on small wings and doesnt need the ball a whole lot on offense.
He was a bulldog on defense up until this past season.
I've been a fan of Powell since he was at UCLA. So yeah i felt like you then I started looking up his contract...and his stats. Even his 2nd year where he was playing well his defensive RPM* was a negative. This year was simply a disaster when he played looking at that stat. We are talking Bazz or Crawford type bad. So...as much as I like Powell doing this deal would basically be making the mistake we got lucky enough that Bazz turned down. I think taking a chance on him for some team might still be worth it but someone that can afford to take on that contract or if they get paid to do it. The positive from this season was he actually had pretty good shooting numbers from everywhere but the 3 point line.
*RPM isn't a be all end all stat but sometimes it's worth considering to put things in some sort of perspective.
