Where do you stand? New Man? or Same old hot steak that's over priced?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I've seen it hinted a number of times -- not just on this forum, but other platforms -- so it clearly needs to be said.

You do not get to use your relationship with your boss/superior as an excuse for why you didn't do your job. There's an independent responsibility to do the job you signed up to do regardless of who overlooks your work. Andrew Wiggins failed to do his job the last couple years and the blame falls squarely on his shoulders.

What I'm seeing from some fans is a desire to use Tom Thibodeau as the excuse for Wiggins' individual development regressing. I don't know if that makes them feel better inside or if that's a ploy to build Wiggins up in their mind, but it's a fallacy.

Wiggins seems to be an improved player based on early returns, which is very good for all parties involved. He should get the large majority of the credit for that.

And when his past is discussed, the same line of thinking should be applied. You are ultimately responsible for your own career regardless of the direction it goes, up or down. Wiggins is a grown ass man. He can handle that.

[Wolvesfan21]

If I were to break it down, coaching matters, but self motivation is the most important for every player. I would say it's 80% on the player and 20% on the coach. The player is mostly responsible for performing at their max level. I think though that a coach can even have a negative effect. I think Thibs was one with his annoying constant barking, many players would simply tune him out all together ("I'm not going to listen to this asshole"). They will still try, but they don't feel like he is on their side. Jim Pete who was closer to the situation then anyone ripped Thibs hard for his coaching style, his personality was a problem. Jimmy Butler even said he hated Thibs at first in Chicago.

Ultimately for sure it's on the player for the most part. But make no mistake that coaching matters too. Being flexible and getting the most out of the players ability, on a one and one basis and scheme wise.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

He's a new version of his old self is my early take. He's back to going downhill and attacking the basket, except this time with less dunk attempts and free throws and instead more skillful floaters and finger rolls. As for his perimeter game, he's taking more 3s and less long 2s.

I think he's definitely on track to do better than the "lost years" under Thibs, but yet to be seen if he actually takes a big leap forward as compared to his 2nd and 3rd seasons, which I consider his best. I think we'll have a better idea after the next 10 games.

I think you nailed it for the most part, Q. But I see three things in his game that look new.

First, I think we're seeing a playmaker Wiggins we've never seen before. He's seeing the floor, making reads and executing smart passes totally unlike anything we've seen from him before.

Second, his ball-handling looks like it has taken a quantum leap since last season. Most of the time (not always), he's dribbling much lower and under control. He's still using his spin move, but he's using it less and more judiciously.

Third, he's competing for rebounds and getting to loose balls far more than I've ever seen from him before. In that sense, I don't see him daydreaming on the court they way he has so often all of his previous 5 seasons.

Beyond those three differences in his game, Andrew's facial expression and body language on the court seem very different. He has a far more serious face on the court with very little of the grinning we used to see from him the previous 5 seasons. And you don't see him meandering around the court with his hands on his hips looking like he could care less whether he's playing or not.

In sum, he looks far more engaged, alert and intense than he's ever been in my memory. It's almost as if he went from heavy daily weed consumption to a daily cup of coffee. Or maybe it was three lost seasons laboring in the oppressive environment created by Thibodeau that stifled his development and caused him to tune out. I think I'd tune out if I had to work for someone like Tom Thibodeau every day. Whatever it is, I like what we've seen so far. But we'll have to see if all this continues the entire season.

We'll see Lip. While I think his ball handling and ball security is better and his passing is better, I just don't see these quantum changes that you mention. He's always been pretty good at kicking out the ball when driving. He's now just a little better. It also helps when he has the ball in his hands 75% of the time. He's just bound to get more assists.

The day he makes a pocket pass on a pick and roll is the day I start using the term quantum with him!

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I've seen it hinted a number of times -- not just on this forum, but other platforms -- so it clearly needs to be said.

You do not get to use your relationship with your boss/superior as an excuse for why you didn't do your job. There's an independent responsibility to do the job you signed up to do regardless of who overlooks your work. Andrew Wiggins failed to do his job the last couple years and the blame falls squarely on his shoulders.

What I'm seeing from some fans is a desire to use Tom Thibodeau as the excuse for Wiggins' individual development regressing. I don't know if that makes them feel better inside or if that's a ploy to build Wiggins up in their mind, but it's a fallacy.

Wiggins seems to be an improved player based on early returns, which is very good for all parties involved. He should get the large majority of the credit for that.

And when his past is discussed, the same line of thinking should be applied. You are ultimately responsible for your own career regardless of the direction it goes, up or down. Wiggins is a grown ass man. He can handle that.

Thibs actually gave the ball to Wiggins a ton in his first year as head coach and tried to very much groom him as "point Wiggins". It is absolutely 100% on Wiggins that he did not develop the skills in all those prior offseasons to take full advantage of his physical gifts.

I call them the lost years because that's what they were for Wiggins, especially after the first season, whether one wants to blame Thibs or not.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

The irony is that despite our newfangled offense and Wiggins' resurgence on that end, we are struggling overall to score efficiently.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

The irony is that despite our newfangled offense and Wiggins' resurgence on that end, we are struggling overall to score efficiently.

Take out wiggs and kat, how many average offensive minded players do we have?

Teague is hurt, roco is still recovering, and everyone else has been pretty bad shooting the ball from deep and the line.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Maybe somewhere in-between?

Minimizing the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad shots from Wiggins' repertoire will help. Playing hard and motivated more often will help. And that will make Andrew Wiggins better than the average or even below average player he has been.

How much better can he get? I dunno. From what I've seen, he's still not an elite passer or ball handler. Will he keep working on it to get to that level? Or, be satisfied that everybody is so desperate to see improvement from him that this is "good enough?"

I don't know. I don't know what motivates guys... especially guys worth $100+M in their early 20s. I can't get in their heads for obvious reasons.

But I do know that if Andrew Wiggins improves to such a degree that he's actually worth that contract... it'll be an unprecedented event in NBA history. For five years, something... SOMETHING... has held Andrew Wiggins back. Maybe his coaches didn't help the situation. But as noted by others... the best players overcome even the worst coaching. We've seen it dozens upon dozens of times in NBA history. Wiggins had several coaches.

The "new" Wiggins looks pretty solid. His overall game (sans defense where he's still incredibly ho-hum and meh) seems better than I can remember over any other 10-game stretch of his career. But I have no problem if people who watched many of his first 400 games have reservations.

I have no problem if they have reservations that Wiggins could revert back to previous forms of malaise as quickly as he showed improvement this season. I have no problem if they question why they should trust a player whose effort and improvement can be so fickle.

It's up to Wiggins to prove everybody wrong... not for 10 games. Not for 40 games. He has to show it and prove it to people more often than not over the next 300 games.

Summary: It's only been 10 games. Wiggins hasn't earned my trust yet. I hope he does though...

[Lipoli390]

He's a new version of his old self is my early take. He's back to going downhill and attacking the basket, except this time with less dunk attempts and free throws and instead more skillful floaters and finger rolls. As for his perimeter game, he's taking more 3s and less long 2s.

I think he's definitely on track to do better than the "lost years" under Thibs, but yet to be seen if he actually takes a big leap forward as compared to his 2nd and 3rd seasons, which I consider his best. I think we'll have a better idea after the next 10 games.

I think you nailed it for the most part, Q. But I see three things in his game that look new.

First, I think we're seeing a playmaker Wiggins we've never seen before. He's seeing the floor, making reads and executing smart passes totally unlike anything we've seen from him before.

Second, his ball-handling looks like it has taken a quantum leap since last season. Most of the time (not always), he's dribbling much lower and under control. He's still using his spin move, but he's using it less and more judiciously.

Third, he's competing for rebounds and getting to loose balls far more than I've ever seen from him before. In that sense, I don't see him daydreaming on the court they way he has so often all of his previous 5 seasons.

Beyond those three differences in his game, Andrew's facial expression and body language on the court seem very different. He has a far more serious face on the court with very little of the grinning we used to see from him the previous 5 seasons. And you don't see him meandering around the court with his hands on his hips looking like he could care less whether he's playing or not.

In sum, he looks far more engaged, alert and intense than he's ever been in my memory. It's almost as if he went from heavy daily weed consumption to a daily cup of coffee. Or maybe it was three lost seasons laboring in the oppressive environment created by Thibodeau that stifled his development and caused him to tune out. I think I'd tune out if I had to work for someone like Tom Thibodeau every day. Whatever it is, I like what we've seen so far. But we'll have to see if all this continues the entire season.

We'll see Lip. While I think his ball handling and ball security is better and his passing is better, I just don't see these quantum changes that you mention. He's always been pretty good at kicking out the ball when driving. He's now just a little better. It also helps when he has the ball in his hands 75% of the time. He's just bound to get more assists.

The day he makes a pocket pass on a pick and roll is the day I start using the term quantum with him!

I think you're right that I overstated his ball-handling and passing improvement with the term quantum leap. But I think he is significantly better in those two areas, although I still see a high dribble on many of his drives and I have yet to see much more than kick outs on dribble drives. I'll stand by my observations on his significantly different on-court demeanor. But I think we all agree there's a long way to go. Whether the improvements we've seen from him so far this season are sustainable and whether he will further improve are open questions and highly debatable given his history. I read another college scouting report on Wiggins last week. Like most other reports, it highlighted Andrew's lack of intensity and effort along with his tendency to disappear in games. All those flaws plus his poor handle and bad shot-selection have been on full display for his 5 NBA seasons before this one. So we'll see. I'm hopeful, but my glass full of Wiggins cool-aid is still sitting on my counter unconsumed. :)

[Lipoli390]

I've seen it hinted a number of times -- not just on this forum, but other platforms -- so it clearly needs to be said.

You do not get to use your relationship with your boss/superior as an excuse for why you didn't do your job. There's an independent responsibility to do the job you signed up to do regardless of who overlooks your work. Andrew Wiggins failed to do his job the last couple years and the blame falls squarely on his shoulders.

What I'm seeing from some fans is a desire to use Tom Thibodeau as the excuse for Wiggins' individual development regressing. I don't know if that makes them feel better inside or if that's a ploy to build Wiggins up in their mind, but it's a fallacy.

Wiggins seems to be an improved player based on early returns, which is very good for all parties involved. He should get the large majority of the credit for that.

And when his past is discussed, the same line of thinking should be applied. You are ultimately responsible for your own career regardless of the direction it goes, up or down. Wiggins is a grown ass man. He can handle that.

Cam - It's not an excuse, but like it or not, it's a credible explanation. So I don't think it's a fallacy. However, if true regarding Wiggins, then I worry about the sustainability of Andrew's improvement. If your effort, intensity and performance depend a lot on external factors then you're probably not going to be reliable over the long haul. The great players have always found motivation from within. I suspect that every former NBA player in the hall-of-fame would have been inducted regardless of what coaches or teams they played for. That's why I've always considered "player development" secondary to the talent and character of the player coming into the NBA.

On the other hand, coaching matters in the development of a player. How a uses you and the style of play he preaches and teaches can have a huge impact on your productivity as a player. And success breeds confidence, which it turn tends to produce more success. Having a boss you like and respect can motivate you to work even harder - to go the extra mile - and improve more than you otherwise would. That's human nature and I still believe NBA players are human. So coaching matters; it can impact a player's performance and development over time, even though we can debate how much it does or should.

[TAFKASP]

I find it difficult to type as I sit here holding my breath in the hope it's real! Real or not, jesus been fun to watch so far.