Justin Patton v John Collins

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think Patton is Thibs' version of LaVine. He's not a guy whose box score stats jumped off the page at you, but watching the way he moves, the soft hands, the length.....it could be one of those situations where good old fashion scouting and eye test trumps the numbers. Thibs might feel that with the proper development, he could become a big man that can switch onto guards defensively, while being an elite rim runner in transition and roller in the half court offense. We'll see.....

[Monster]

Another guy i am curious how Collins compares to in a few years even though they are different draft classes is Chriss.

Here is a video of Collins dunks in SL.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JCtFmCd2fbo

When I was watching these highlights I was thinking...Lip do you think Collins looks slimmer? I think he might. I actually thought Tatum may have looked slimmer also. Mobility is pretty big now days. Remember in the days of Shaq where guys were trying to bulk up as much as possible? It was so nice to see that era ending and it's only getting more that way and Lebron won't be around forever. Leonard is pretty imposing though as a wing.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Another guy i am curious how Collins compares to in a few years even though they are different draft classes is Chriss.

Here is a video of Collins dunks in SL.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JCtFmCd2fbo

When I was watching these highlights I was thinking...Lip do you think Collins looks slimmer? I think he might. I actually thought Tatum may have looked slimmer also. Mobility is pretty big now days. Remember in the days of Shaq where guys were trying to bulk up as much as possible? It was so nice to see that era ending and it's only getting more that way and Lebron won't be around forever. Leonard is pretty imposing though as a wing.

Wow, that is a lot of highlight-reel dunks in only a small sample of games. That dude is a pogo stick.

Back to Patton....remember that one of Thibs' keys to generating open corner 3s is that his bigs need to roll hard to the hoop, sucking in weak side defenders that are leaving the corner shooter open. My guess is that he sees Patton as an elite roll man and rim runner that could put a tremendous amount of pressure on a defense since he can convert at such a high rate around the rim (and coincidentally, so can Collins). And then on the other end, his feet are quick enough to stay in front of small ballers. In an ideal world, a team counters small ball with big players that can punish small ballers offensively, while still being able to check them defensively.

[Lipoli390]

main difference between those two and reason why probably Thib drafted Patton is difference in size, Collins has 8'10 standing reach, which is SF size and Patton has 9'4 standing reach, which is legit center size (it is more than KAT has)

still if one would draft for boosting bench for next season Collins would be the pick, though especially with undersized guys i would be temted to wait for actual NBA action as size/agility of players in summer league is not on par with NBA

I'll have to quibble with you as you tread in my area of expertise, namely overhead reach. :). Collins has an overhead reach of 8'10.5 while Patton has a reach of 9'3.5. A bit half inch up for Collins and an equally big half inch down for Patton. :). But seriously, Collins more than makes up for the 5" difference in reach with a 7" difference in vertical jump, especially the no-step vertical, which is huge. Moreover, look at Kevin Love, Al Horford and Paul Millsap -- three all-star caliber PFs who all have an overhead reach almost identical to Collins. Yet, none of those three is as athletic as Collins.

So there's nothing in Collins measureables to suggest he can't be a good or even great NBA PF. His college performance gives a clue that he can be a terrific NBA rebounder and efficient scorer. But of course he has a long way to go.

[Lipoli390]

Another guy i am curious how Collins compares to in a few years even though they are different draft classes is Chriss.

Here is a video of Collins dunks in SL.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JCtFmCd2fbo

When I was watching these highlights I was thinking...Lip do you think Collins looks slimmer? I think he might. I actually thought Tatum may have looked slimmer also. Mobility is pretty big now days. Remember in the days of Shaq where guys were trying to bulk up as much as possible? It was so nice to see that era ending and it's only getting more that way and Lebron won't be around forever. Leonard is pretty imposing though as a wing.

Wow, that is a lot of highlight-reel dunks in only a small sample of games. That dude is a pogo stick.

Back to Patton....remember that one of Thibs' keys to generating open corner 3s is that his bigs need to roll hard to the hoop, sucking in weak side defenders that are leaving the corner shooter open. My guess is that he sees Patton as an elite roll man and rim runner that could put a tremendous amount of pressure on a defense since he can convert at such a high rate around the rim (and coincidentally, so can Collins). And then on the other end, his feet are quick enough to stay in front of small ballers. In an ideal world, a team counters small ball with big players that can punish small ballers offensively, while still being able to check them defensively.

As you noted, Q, Collins can do everything Patton can do. Collins was terrific in pick and roll and his college stats bear that out. Patton is longer, but Collins is more athletic. The difference for me is that Collins was far more productive than Patton in college. I'm sure you're right about why Thibs ended up picking Patton -- relying on the eye test (probably his scouts' eye test) over the numbers. That was my point. The numbers, especially rebounding numbers, should trump the eye test. And I'll add that Collins even stands out in the eye test. He's so bouncy and athletic, but also has great body control, nice footwork and a nice looking stroke.

It's obviously very early to draw any definitive conclusions about the this year's crop of rookies. But we all reach conclusions before the draft, which is the basis for making draft decisions or forming draft opinions. The summer league gives us a little extra data. And what Collins showed in summer league lines up with his performance in college.

[Monster]

Another guy i am curious how Collins compares to in a few years even though they are different draft classes is Chriss.

Here is a video of Collins dunks in SL.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JCtFmCd2fbo

When I was watching these highlights I was thinking...Lip do you think Collins looks slimmer? I think he might. I actually thought Tatum may have looked slimmer also. Mobility is pretty big now days. Remember in the days of Shaq where guys were trying to bulk up as much as possible? It was so nice to see that era ending and it's only getting more that way and Lebron won't be around forever. Leonard is pretty imposing though as a wing.

Wow, that is a lot of highlight-reel dunks in only a small sample of games. That dude is a pogo stick.

Back to Patton....remember that one of Thibs' keys to generating open corner 3s is that his bigs need to roll hard to the hoop, sucking in weak side defenders that are leaving the corner shooter open. My guess is that he sees Patton as an elite roll man and rim runner that could put a tremendous amount of pressure on a defense since he can convert at such a high rate around the rim (and coincidentally, so can Collins). And then on the other end, his feet are quick enough to stay in front of small ballers. In an ideal world, a team counters small ball with big players that can punish small ballers offensively, while still being able to check them defensively.

As you noted, Q, Collins can do everything Patton can do. Collins was terrific in pick and roll and his college stats bear that out. Patton is longer, but Collins is more athletic. The difference for me is that Collins was far more productive than Patton in college. I'm sure you're right about why Thibs ended up picking Patton -- relying on the eye test (probably his scouts' eye test) over the numbers. That was my point. The numbers, especially rebounding numbers, should trump the eye test. And I'll add that Collins even stands out in the eye test. He's so bouncy and athletic, but also has great body control, nice footwork and a nice looking stroke.

It's obviously very early to draw any definitive conclusions about the this year's crop of rookies. But we all reach conclusions before the draft, which is the basis for making draft decisions or forming draft opinions. The summer league gives us a little extra data. And what Collins showed in summer league lines up with his performance in college.

You said Collins can do everything Patton can do. According to the scouting reports that's not accurate. Most people said Collins couldn't guard a trash can and Patton's defense was generally lauded. My guess is you meant the physical tools but I wanted to clarify there. I can't let you slide too much you already wiggled you way out of that short overhead reach thing that you got nailed on. :)

[Lipoli390]

Another guy i am curious how Collins compares to in a few years even though they are different draft classes is Chriss.

Here is a video of Collins dunks in SL.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JCtFmCd2fbo

When I was watching these highlights I was thinking...Lip do you think Collins looks slimmer? I think he might. I actually thought Tatum may have looked slimmer also. Mobility is pretty big now days. Remember in the days of Shaq where guys were trying to bulk up as much as possible? It was so nice to see that era ending and it's only getting more that way and Lebron won't be around forever. Leonard is pretty imposing though as a wing.

Wow, that is a lot of highlight-reel dunks in only a small sample of games. That dude is a pogo stick.

Back to Patton....remember that one of Thibs' keys to generating open corner 3s is that his bigs need to roll hard to the hoop, sucking in weak side defenders that are leaving the corner shooter open. My guess is that he sees Patton as an elite roll man and rim runner that could put a tremendous amount of pressure on a defense since he can convert at such a high rate around the rim (and coincidentally, so can Collins). And then on the other end, his feet are quick enough to stay in front of small ballers. In an ideal world, a team counters small ball with big players that can punish small ballers offensively, while still being able to check them defensively.

As you noted, Q, Collins can do everything Patton can do. Collins was terrific in pick and roll and his college stats bear that out. Patton is longer, but Collins is more athletic. The difference for me is that Collins was far more productive than Patton in college. I'm sure you're right about why Thibs ended up picking Patton -- relying on the eye test (probably his scouts' eye test) over the numbers. That was my point. The numbers, especially rebounding numbers, should trump the eye test. And I'll add that Collins even stands out in the eye test. He's so bouncy and athletic, but also has great body control, nice footwork and a nice looking stroke.

It's obviously very early to draw any definitive conclusions about the this year's crop of rookies. But we all reach conclusions before the draft, which is the basis for making draft decisions or forming draft opinions. The summer league gives us a little extra data. And what Collins showed in summer league lines up with his performance in college.

You said Collins can do everything Patton can do. According to the scouting reports that's not accurate. Most people said Collins couldn't guard a trash can and Patton's defense was generally lauded. My guess is you meant the physical tools but I wanted to clarify there. I can't let you slide too much you already wiggled you way out of that short overhead reach thing that you got nailed on. :)

Hey my friend, sometimes with you I feel like I'm being followed. :) Actually, I should have clarified that Collins can do everything Patton does on the offensive end. Recall I was responding to Q's point about Patton's pick and roll prowess. As for Patton's defense, I think we're reading different reviews. Check out the draft express review of Patton's defense. Not impressive.

As for overhead reach, I'm not sure what you mean by wiggling out. I was correcting a post that took a half inch of length away from Collins and added a half inch to Patton. Would you prefer it if I ignored the phantom 1 inch shift. :) I also thought it important to provide some concrete examples illustrating that, whether Collins has an 8'10 or and 8'10.5 overhead reach, he does, in fact, have adequate length to be a good NBA PF. Now stop harassing me! :)

[Monster]

Lip you got me on the John Collins bandwagon months ago I'm just giving you a hard time espcially when a underwhelming overhead reach is involved! I'll leave you alone on the bandwagon if you want. :)

Full disclosure I did buy a couple Creighton hats last week because of my guy Patton. Lol It just got me that ironically I bought one of them specifically for running.

[Lipoli390]

Lip you got me on the John Collins bandwagon months ago I'm just giving you a hard time espcially when a underwhelming overhead reach is involved! I'll leave you alone on the bandwagon if you want. :)

Full disclosure I did buy a couple Creighton hats last week because of my guy Patton. Lol It just got me that ironically I bought one of them specifically for running.

Lol. Be careful not to break your foot running. :). My sister lives in Omaha and was really excited when I told her the Wolves drafted Patton. She said he grew up in a really thought neighborhood. I actually like Patton as a prospect, but not as much as Collins. I had him slightly ahead of Allen.

I saw some post suggesting Patton was out for the season. Have you heard that? I don't think it's true. I'm thinking and hoping he could be playing by December.

[Monster]

Lip you got me on the John Collins bandwagon months ago I'm just giving you a hard time espcially when a underwhelming overhead reach is involved! I'll leave you alone on the bandwagon if you want. :)

Full disclosure I did buy a couple Creighton hats last week because of my guy Patton. Lol It just got me that ironically I bought one of them specifically for running.

Lol. Be careful not to break your foot running. :). My sister lives in Omaha and was really excited when I told her the Wolves drafted Patton. She said he grew up in a really thought neighborhood. I actually like Patton as a prospect, but not as much as Collins. I had him slightly ahead of Allen.

I saw some post suggesting Patton was out for the season. Have you heard that? I don't think it's true. I'm thinking and hoping he could be playing by December.

Speaking of tough neighborhoods in Omaha I had a roommate in college that lived for a few years with his Grandma in one of the tougher parts there. Hearing gun shots were common. I specifically remember when we roomed together we heard on the radio about someone getting shot and killed and he was like "Oh yeah that's like a block away from where my Grandma lives."

I actually posted a local article about his injury and some google searched laymen's comments earlier in this thread. It may also make my comment about the irony of buying Creighton hat for running make even more sense.

Also I asked you earlier if you thought Collins looked more slim (not in a bad way but a quicker way) and I'm curious what you think.