Wolves 2017 Draft Thread

[Lipoli390]

The good news is the 2nd tier of prospects goes down to pick 8, so ITWT.

In Thibs We Trust.

The funny think is people always say Thibs wants defense, tough guys or whatever. Of course then the conventional wisdom that's out there is he wants a score first PG. My guess is Thibs wants good players that will compete and work hard to get better. It's obviously not that simple but I think sometimes people typecast a little too simply what guys are Thibs guys and who aren't.

Dunn seems like a Thibs guy though and while people can say they didn't get that pick right honestly unless you are the Bucks and picked Brogdon nobody really blew anyone away till maybe later in the year when some guys were also playing legit mi utes for playoff teams. I'm not all that impressed with this draft but I still think we can absolutely get a valuable player at 7. How confident do I feel? Idk it's hard to say it really depends on who is available.

Monster -- I think you're right about what Thibs wants. But I think you could say the same for every other president of basketball operations in the NBA. Everyone wants good players with the personal characteristics necessary to improve over time. Yet, Thibs and other front office heads can't just be looking for good players with competitive zeal and good work ethics. They're invariably looking to draft the best player available when they're on the clock or, perhaps, the best fit for the team. Depending on the PBO and the status of the team, some probably look for prospects with the most upside while others might look for the most NBA-ready prospects. Others might look for the best fit for the team short and long term. Some might be looking for some combination of the three, giving more or less weight to one factor over the others. But I sure hope Thibs wants more than a good player with a good work ethic. I hope he want the best player available from his perspective -- whether it's upside, fit or a combination of the two.

I think the best front office execs look to draft those with the highest upside in combination with the the competitive heart and work ethic to eventually reach their potential. I'm dubious of using lottery picks to find the right "fit." It's about talent and the personal characteristics (motor, etc.) that make the most of a player's talent. The Dunn pick certainly highlights Thibs' affinity for character in the form of competitiveness and work ethic. It's also showed Thibs' well-known affinity for defense. I'm not sure what the pick says about Thibs' eye for talent. Time will tell.

I just hope Thibs draft-day decision this summer is about upside and motor. I want him to take the prospect available at #7 who he believes has the highest upside and the motor/work ethic to eventually achieve that upside. Among those likely available at #7, Smith will arguably have the highest upside. But I wouldn't take him because of questions surrounding his motor and worth ethic. Markkenan, Monk, Zach Collins and Ntilitinka all appear to have good motors. So unless there's a darkhorse prospect Thibs has in mind, I'm hoping he chooses the one among these 4 who he believes has the highest upside. Save the "fit" issue for free agency. At least that's my view.

[Monster]

The good news is the 2nd tier of prospects goes down to pick 8, so ITWT.

In Thibs We Trust.

The funny think is people always say Thibs wants defense, tough guys or whatever. Of course then the conventional wisdom that's out there is he wants a score first PG. My guess is Thibs wants good players that will compete and work hard to get better. It's obviously not that simple but I think sometimes people typecast a little too simply what guys are Thibs guys and who aren't.

Dunn seems like a Thibs guy though and while people can say they didn't get that pick right honestly unless you are the Bucks and picked Brogdon nobody really blew anyone away till maybe later in the year when some guys were also playing legit mi utes for playoff teams. I'm not all that impressed with this draft but I still think we can absolutely get a valuable player at 7. How confident do I feel? Idk it's hard to say it really depends on who is available.

Monster -- I think you're right about what Thibs wants. But I think you could say the same for every other president of basketball operations in the NBA. Everyone wants good players with the personal characteristics necessary to improve over time. Yet, Thibs and other front office heads can't just be looking for good players with competitive zeal and good work ethics. They're invariably looking to draft the best player available when they're on the clock or, perhaps, the best fit for the team. Depending on the PBO and the status of the team, some probably look for prospects with the most upside while others might look for the most NBA-ready prospects. Others might look for the best fit for the team short and long term. Some might be looking for some combination of the three, giving more or less weight to one factor over the others. But I sure hope Thibs wants more than a good player with a good work ethic. I hope he want the best player available from his perspective -- whether it's upside, fit or a combination of the two.

I think the best front office execs look to draft those with the highest upside in combination with the the competitive heart and work ethic to eventually reach their potential. I'm dubious of using lottery picks to find the right "fit." It's about talent and the personal characteristics (motor, etc.) that make the most of a player's talent. The Dunn pick certainly highlights Thibs' affinity for character in the form of competitiveness and work ethic. It's also showed Thibs' well-known affinity for defense. I'm not sure what the pick says about Thibs' eye for talent. Time will tell.

I just hope Thibs draft-day decision this summer is about upside and motor. I want him to take the prospect available at #7 who he believes has the highest upside and the motor/work ethic to eventually achieve that upside. Among those likely available at #7, Smith will arguably have the highest upside. But I wouldn't take him because of questions surrounding his motor and worth ethic. Markkenan, Monk, Zach Collins and Ntilitinka all appear to have good motors. So unless there's a darkhorse prospect Thibs has in mind, I'm hoping he chooses the one among these 4 who he believes has the highest upside. Save the "fit" issue for free agency. At least that's my view.

I pretty much agree with all you said here. Like I said I don't know if there is particularly a type of player Thibs would go for. Nobody is gonna want to pick a guy top 10 that you aren't sure if he cares about basketball or whatever. A few draft experts I have read and listened to on podcasts will say about some prospects with higher upsides they say something like "This guy has a higher upside but their chance of reaching it is only 5 or 10 percent." So maybe you take a guy you think has a better chance of reaching a pretty good ceiling even if it's lower than the other guy reaching theirs.

On Dennis Smith Jr nobody has found the stuff from before college about this poor motor work ethic stuff I have read vague references to. He seems to be more of a guy that has a certain edge to him than a guy you have to rile up.

[60WinTim]

SI has their latest mock draft out. Orlando takes Monk. The Wolves take Isaac.

I would be very happy with either player.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/13/nba-mock-draft-updated-rankings-lonzo-ball-lakers-markelle-fultz#

[Lipoli390]

The good news is the 2nd tier of prospects goes down to pick 8, so ITWT.

In Thibs We Trust.

The funny think is people always say Thibs wants defense, tough guys or whatever. Of course then the conventional wisdom that's out there is he wants a score first PG. My guess is Thibs wants good players that will compete and work hard to get better. It's obviously not that simple but I think sometimes people typecast a little too simply what guys are Thibs guys and who aren't.

Dunn seems like a Thibs guy though and while people can say they didn't get that pick right honestly unless you are the Bucks and picked Brogdon nobody really blew anyone away till maybe later in the year when some guys were also playing legit mi utes for playoff teams. I'm not all that impressed with this draft but I still think we can absolutely get a valuable player at 7. How confident do I feel? Idk it's hard to say it really depends on who is available.

Monster -- I think you're right about what Thibs wants. But I think you could say the same for every other president of basketball operations in the NBA. Everyone wants good players with the personal characteristics necessary to improve over time. Yet, Thibs and other front office heads can't just be looking for good players with competitive zeal and good work ethics. They're invariably looking to draft the best player available when they're on the clock or, perhaps, the best fit for the team. Depending on the PBO and the status of the team, some probably look for prospects with the most upside while others might look for the most NBA-ready prospects. Others might look for the best fit for the team short and long term. Some might be looking for some combination of the three, giving more or less weight to one factor over the others. But I sure hope Thibs wants more than a good player with a good work ethic. I hope he want the best player available from his perspective -- whether it's upside, fit or a combination of the two.

I think the best front office execs look to draft those with the highest upside in combination with the the competitive heart and work ethic to eventually reach their potential. I'm dubious of using lottery picks to find the right "fit." It's about talent and the personal characteristics (motor, etc.) that make the most of a player's talent. The Dunn pick certainly highlights Thibs' affinity for character in the form of competitiveness and work ethic. It's also showed Thibs' well-known affinity for defense. I'm not sure what the pick says about Thibs' eye for talent. Time will tell.

I just hope Thibs draft-day decision this summer is about upside and motor. I want him to take the prospect available at #7 who he believes has the highest upside and the motor/work ethic to eventually achieve that upside. Among those likely available at #7, Smith will arguably have the highest upside. But I wouldn't take him because of questions surrounding his motor and worth ethic. Markkenan, Monk, Zach Collins and Ntilitinka all appear to have good motors. So unless there's a darkhorse prospect Thibs has in mind, I'm hoping he chooses the one among these 4 who he believes has the highest upside. Save the "fit" issue for free agency. At least that's my view.

I pretty much agree with all you said here. Like I said I don't know if there is particularly a type of player Thibs would go for. Nobody is gonna want to pick a guy top 10 that you aren't sure if he cares about basketball or whatever. A few draft experts I have read and listened to on podcasts will say about some prospects with higher upsides they say something like "This guy has a higher upside but their chance of reaching it is only 5 or 10 percent." So maybe you take a guy you think has a better chance of reaching a pretty good ceiling even if it's lower than the other guy reaching theirs.

On Dennis Smith Jr nobody has found the stuff from before college about this poor motor work ethic stuff I have read vague references to. He seems to be more of a guy that has a certain edge to him than a guy you have to rile up.

All I know about Dennis Smith is what I've read and there are references to an inconsistent motor/motivation in college and before. Those sorts of general references regarding motor issues in on-line scouting reports have tended to be pretty true over the years so that's enough for me to put him on my untouchable list. Hopefully Thibs has better information than the on-line scouting we all read. :). If Smith's issue is having an edge to him, then he's the kind of guy I'd want. I love players with an edge and they tend to be successful in the NBA.

As you suggested, it might make sense to pick a guy with a little less upside who is most likely to achieve his potential. Thinking about degree of upside versus odds of reaching potential, how would you rank the following: Markkenan, Monk, Isaac and Zach Collins?

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

SI has their latest mock draft out. Orlando takes Monk. The Wolves take Isaac.

I would be very happy with either player.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/13/nba-mock-draft-updated-rankings-lonzo-ball-lakers-markelle-fultz#

I see that as more evidence that Monk is impressing some people in his workouts. I hope this is true...still craving Isaac.

[Monster]

The good news is the 2nd tier of prospects goes down to pick 8, so ITWT.

In Thibs We Trust.

The funny think is people always say Thibs wants defense, tough guys or whatever. Of course then the conventional wisdom that's out there is he wants a score first PG. My guess is Thibs wants good players that will compete and work hard to get better. It's obviously not that simple but I think sometimes people typecast a little too simply what guys are Thibs guys and who aren't.

Dunn seems like a Thibs guy though and while people can say they didn't get that pick right honestly unless you are the Bucks and picked Brogdon nobody really blew anyone away till maybe later in the year when some guys were also playing legit mi utes for playoff teams. I'm not all that impressed with this draft but I still think we can absolutely get a valuable player at 7. How confident do I feel? Idk it's hard to say it really depends on who is available.

Monster -- I think you're right about what Thibs wants. But I think you could say the same for every other president of basketball operations in the NBA. Everyone wants good players with the personal characteristics necessary to improve over time. Yet, Thibs and other front office heads can't just be looking for good players with competitive zeal and good work ethics. They're invariably looking to draft the best player available when they're on the clock or, perhaps, the best fit for the team. Depending on the PBO and the status of the team, some probably look for prospects with the most upside while others might look for the most NBA-ready prospects. Others might look for the best fit for the team short and long term. Some might be looking for some combination of the three, giving more or less weight to one factor over the others. But I sure hope Thibs wants more than a good player with a good work ethic. I hope he want the best player available from his perspective -- whether it's upside, fit or a combination of the two.

I think the best front office execs look to draft those with the highest upside in combination with the the competitive heart and work ethic to eventually reach their potential. I'm dubious of using lottery picks to find the right "fit." It's about talent and the personal characteristics (motor, etc.) that make the most of a player's talent. The Dunn pick certainly highlights Thibs' affinity for character in the form of competitiveness and work ethic. It's also showed Thibs' well-known affinity for defense. I'm not sure what the pick says about Thibs' eye for talent. Time will tell.

I just hope Thibs draft-day decision this summer is about upside and motor. I want him to take the prospect available at #7 who he believes has the highest upside and the motor/work ethic to eventually achieve that upside. Among those likely available at #7, Smith will arguably have the highest upside. But I wouldn't take him because of questions surrounding his motor and worth ethic. Markkenan, Monk, Zach Collins and Ntilitinka all appear to have good motors. So unless there's a darkhorse prospect Thibs has in mind, I'm hoping he chooses the one among these 4 who he believes has the highest upside. Save the "fit" issue for free agency. At least that's my view.

I pretty much agree with all you said here. Like I said I don't know if there is particularly a type of player Thibs would go for. Nobody is gonna want to pick a guy top 10 that you aren't sure if he cares about basketball or whatever. A few draft experts I have read and listened to on podcasts will say about some prospects with higher upsides they say something like "This guy has a higher upside but their chance of reaching it is only 5 or 10 percent." So maybe you take a guy you think has a better chance of reaching a pretty good ceiling even if it's lower than the other guy reaching theirs.

On Dennis Smith Jr nobody has found the stuff from before college about this poor motor work ethic stuff I have read vague references to. He seems to be more of a guy that has a certain edge to him than a guy you have to rile up.

All I know about Dennis Smith is what I've read and there are references to an inconsistent motor/motivation in college and before. Those sorts of general references regarding motor issues in on-line scouting reports have tended to be pretty true over the years so that's enough for me to put him on my untouchable list. Hopefully Thibs has better information than the on-line scouting we all read. :). If Smith's issue is having an edge to him, then he's the kind of guy I'd want. I love players with an edge and they tend to be successful in the NBA.

As you suggested, it might make sense to pick a guy with a little less upside who is most likely to achieve his potential. Thinking about degree of upside versus odds of reaching potential, how would you rank the following: Markkenan, Monk, Isaac and Zach Collins?

This got long hopefully it helps answer your question. Lol

I guess there are some rumblings about injury concerns about Isaac but since I don't have that info in front of me (and it could be nothing or maybe it's somewhat significant) let's leave that out. To me what i like about Isaac is the guy has a good floor also. Someone mentioned Marvin Williams as a floor a few days ago. Obviously you would like to have a better player than that but adding that type of player to this team would still be a win. Because in theory Isaac doesn't have to achieve super star status because we already have stuff offensive players his full in the other stuff game really works well here. Sure some of why I like him is fit with the roster. Let's be honest though picking the best talent isn't always the best way to go. It worked out fine for Utah so far picking a bunch of bigs but the Sixers it's just been ok and I think they made the right picks taking the guys they did but it's been problematic. So anyway back to Isaac I think is floor and a reasonable expectation would be great. Anglo g with that he is pretty skilled to it's possible the guy figures it out and even becomes a multifaceted offensive talent too. There is a chance he busts but I like the odds. It doesn't seem like there is much hype around him right now. I wonder if either these medical concerns are something teams are considering or maybe he didn't shot well in workouts or maybe teams are just being hush about him. We will see.

Monk and Markkanen...how good are these guys at shooting and how good can they be? I start there. These guys are where they are in draft consideration b cause they can take and make jumpers. How elite of prospects are they at shooting? I'm not sure. With Monk I feel like I wish we were the team that signed Seth Curry last summer. The mavs stepped up with a pretty decent offer plus likely opportunity that the Wolves probably weren't going to be able to offer. Both Monk and Markkanen have some offensive abilities beyond just Shooting outside jumpers. How good are those skills? How much can they round out their game? How much can they leverage their physical gifts (length Markkanen athletic ability Monk) and manage their weaknesses? Idk I find it hard to project those guys more because I feel like I would need to see them play in games more.

Zach Collins is a guy that I think COULD end up putting it all together. How likely is that? For him I think some of it is going to be opportunity. Givony from DX said he thinks there are a few guys that are considered draft busts who really went to the wrong team who were poor at developing guys and didn't give them an opportunity. I tend to think that's letting some of these players off the hook a bit but he probably has a point. If some guys had been developed better they wouldn't have been stars but maybe they become a fringe starter or top rotation level player. So will Collins end up in a spot where he gets to play? Imagine if Dieng had stayed stuck behind a magically healthy Pek? Collins is obviously has a higher ceiling than Dieng but right now the league is going away from centers. Who picks the kid? Do they throw him out there and play him? Idk. He looks like a guy that will play hard do whatever you ask and has some varied skills. His jumper looks very promising. On the other hand he is even more projection than all the other guys because of limited playing time. He also fouls a lot and some draft folks have pointed out he can get down on himself if he picks up a foul. If there was a team that needed a center and was picking 6 and down I think more teams would be really interested. A lot of those teams have options they may want to keep rolling with and need to take a shot at finding a more dynamic perimeter player instead of taking a gamble on Collins when it's possible he becomes a handy hustle big that can hit some shots. I don't think he will bust but he could be one of those guys like the Celtics have that are nice players but not guys that are really needed to win games. The Wolves already have Towns Dieng and even Aldrich (who should t have any factor into this pick) who at this point are centers or PF/C in this league and with Collins you add another one. Like I said a few days ago if Collins ends up somewhere between Towns and Dieng as a player...well that might be a pretty good use of 7. Cool thinks he is athletic enough to play PF. I'm skeptical. We also have pretty much shut the door on Towns as PF. It's possible he ends up being able to play there despite struggling at times there. If you think Collins can become say a Stephen Adams type guy (although more skinny) with a jumper...take him and figure it out later.

Ok for ranking
1. Isaac obviously.



2. Collins depending on if you think he can shoot and whether or not you think he can play with Towns. He could go down if the answers to the above questions are negative

3 and 4 Monk and Markkanen. How good do you think these guys are? How much can you project these guys? Markkanen makes sense as a PF that can shoot on this roster. That's fit. If Belly comes back healthy plays reasonably well (I'm being admittedly optimistic here) and Dieng plays a ton of minutes...well maybe he doesn't fit as much at that point and we haven't even added any FA yet.

Ultimately I'd maybe swing for the upside pick as long as you thought you would actually have a reasonable chance of developing that guy. I could actually see the Wolves liking Dennis Smith if some of these issues are overblown (I'm questioning them and I am not even wanting to pick him) but do they really want to invest in another PG talent? There is plenty of intruige and a trade down seems to be a legit possible option depending on how the draft goes and who you value. It's a little over a week left.

[Monster]

SI has their latest mock draft out. Orlando takes Monk. The Wolves take Isaac.

I would be very happy with either player.

https://www.si.com/nba/2017/06/13/nba-mock-draft-updated-rankings-lonzo-ball-lakers-markelle-fultz#

I see that as more evidence that Monk is impressing some people in his workouts. I hope this is true...still craving Isaac.

They have Monk going 8. I have a hard time with give credence to this mock when hey have Tatum going 3 to the Sixers. I don't see how that makes any sense. How many combo forwards are they going to have?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

My definition of a "high upside" pick is a guy that could develop into an elite role player, not just an elite scorer. That's why the PGs in this draft aren't as interesting to me for our squad. And I doubt Thibs will go in that direction unless he takes one as a trade asset.

Right now, my ranking is probably something like this: 1) trade the pick for a vet that fits a specific need for us, 2) Isaac, 3) trade the pick down for a defensive-oriented role player or two, and 4) Zach Collins.

[Monster]

Here is a podcast with the draft scout guru Elan Vinokurov.

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/the-rights-to-ricky-sanchez/id474529211?mt=2&i=1000386123435

Obviously there is stuff he can't say and I didn't feel like I learned a ton but I'll share a few things.

They talked about some other stuff before having Elan on but I mostly skipped forward. They talked about Jerry Colangelo taking to the media recently about the draft and...well let's just one of the hosts really doesn't like Jerry. I was glad I listened to part of that segment it was funny to hear him go off.

Elan said he thought Isaac was the best player for the Sixers at 3. He brought up his injury concerns but loves all the different things he can do and said he will likely enable you to play positionless basketball etc.

Believes more in Josh Jackson's jumper becoming league average than Fox.

Talked about Markkanen because one of the hosts thought after watching YouTube videos that he sucks. Elan said when he watches YouTube of Philadelphia eagles prospects around the draft he admits he may be influenced by whether the music sucks or not whether he likes the prospect. Lol he had a little fun talking about YouTube scouting it was amusing.

Back to Markkanen. He said that Finland's national team basically has nothing on it so he has been doing everything for that team for a few years at the levels he plays and was fairly impressive doing it. It made me think of how Dieng improved some in his offensive game being the man on his national team. He said Arizona asked him to do a lot offensively and generally speaking he came through. He thinks there is no 7' player that's ever come into the draft as good of a shooter and Markkanen and he is a freshman. He thinks he is a good enough shooter and has enough skill he does have go to offensive ability. He says sure he may not be good defensively or rebound but if he is an elite scorer figure that stuff out.

He thinks Monk can play defense if he wants it and he is a good kid. He doesn't think his athletic ability translates right now and a lot of that is because he doesn't have more than a simple ball handling drive game. He agreed the fit with the Sixers is obvious.

He likes Dennis Smith but not above any of the other PGs. He said drafting him in the top 10 makes sense. He thought he was more of a power guard than a freak athlete. He wasn't complimentary of Smith's PG skills.

He said Josh Hart is one of the 28 players he has as guys with first round pick grades. He really loves how he went through his whole career got better did anything he was asked etc. said if you are looking for that older player that ends up playing legit minutes 20 games into the season and people wonder why he wasn't picked higher like Brogdon last year he is the guy.

Said outside of Frank N this is a pretty terrible international draft which is too bad since the Sixers have four 2nd round picks. It seemed anyone especially that wasn't a big that he brought up was really a flyer and one guy he said might become a Sam Decker or Omri Casspi....in like 6 years. That's not exactly exciting. Lol

That's the worthwhile stuff I remember. They didn't go over every top 10 pick but they talked about some other guys outside of the lottery but I don't remember anything interesting at the moment.

[Lipoli390]

Monster -- Great analysis! I enjoyed reading your post and agree with most of it.

I'm with Monster in viewing Isaac as the best the best pick for several reasons. First, as Monster indicated, he seems to have a pretty high floor paired with a very high upside. Second, he's a multi-dimensional player who can fill Q's "do-shit" stats as well as score. Finally, he has positional flexibility, allowing him to play the PF or SF position initially and eventually perhaps even the C position as he fills out. My one reservation would be his physical (primarily foot) issues. So I'd want a degree of assurance that he can hold up physically. I'm big on avoiding prospects with red flags related to motor/attitude or physical issues/injury history. Embiid is someone I would have avoided for that reason and I think history will prove me right. He may have a good season or two, but I see a short, injury riddled career in store for him. In fact, that's what we've already seen.

Unlike Q, trading the pick for a veteran would not be my first choice if. Isaac is available at #7. I'd rely on free agency to bring in an impactful veteran or two and rely on the draft to augment my talent poor for the long haul. However, if Isaac isn't available to us, I'm not sure what I'd do.

If Isaac's isn't available I'd be open to trading for a vet, but only if it's a Jimmy Butler caliber player and I don't see that happening. If Thibs is convinced that Smith, Ntlilinka or someone else has a good chance of being an elite player over time, then he should take that gy at #7 or trade down and pick that guy if possible. Otherwise, if it were me, I'd be torn between Markkenan and Collins. I see Markkenan as the safer bet -- a guy who will be a very good perimeter shooter with the length to get his shot off at the NBA level. He also seems to have a high basketball IQ which should help him adjust to the NBA game in relatively short order. Collins would be my higher upside pick because of his better length as well as his impressive rebounding and shot-blocking stats. But I think he's a longer term project than Markkenan and has a less certain prognosis. The good thing about both Collins and Markkenan is that neither one has any apparent red flags -- namely motor/attitude issues or physical issues.

I wouldn't take Monk. His streaky shooting and lack of size trouble me. His lack of size is particularly problematic given his unimpressive ball-handling. Small players only succeed in the NBA when they have "ball-on-a-string" handles. He's not even close and that's one of those skills that doesn't seem to improve a lot after getting to the NBA. I'm also troubled by his lack of "do-shit" production.

I still see John Collins as an intriguing prospect to trade down for. He reminds me a bit of Al Jefferson. You can't overlook his tremendous offensive productivity, especially his highly efficient insider scoring. I think he'll be a terrific inside scorer and good rebounding in the NBA. Unfortunately his game doesnt' fit the modern NBA very well. I've read a bit about his potential to become a good 3-point shooter, but I'd need to know more.