TheFuture wrote:Q I'm more getting at the fact that Ricky just doesnt cut it spotting up, being a PnR threat, taking advantage of a big man on switches, etc (Fox, DSJ, and Dunn show ability to do some of that). I also believe the positives would outweigh the negatives for Dunn if he had the green light from the start of the year. I think most here are tired of having "the next year promise" for Ricky after seeing the same ol year after year.
So we spend another season allowing our offense to be "maestro Ricky", and maybe we do hit the playoffs. But as an opposing team I just get the ball out of Ricky's hands. What do the wolves do then? Play iso because that is all they will know to do.
I loved the Wiggins and Lavine development Thibs was going for. But he couldn't afford to lose value on Ricky nor finish worse than Sam did, so he reverted to the only way of making Ricky useful.
Now, if Ricky suddenly becomes a Nash or even a 30 + year old Kidd 3 pt threat then I'll gladly eat my crow. After 3+ years of off season "work", yet still seeing him throw line drives at the hoop - I'm not buying it.
I won't fault anyone for being skeptical about any further improvement to Ricky's shooting/scoring ability, as I myself am a skeptic. But I've always thought of him as a solid starting NBA PG despite this and a unique fit to our team in that our main scorers are on the wings along with the most offensively gifted big man in a generation. We were the #10 offense last season, despite having one of the lowest scoring benches in the league.
Not many other teams can fit Ricky in their offense the same way we can because they actually need their PG to carry a heavy scoring load. That makes him more valuable to us than what we can probably get back in the open market.
Q -- I think you're right that Ricky's more valueable to us than most other teams because we have players at other positions to carry the scoring load. And like you, I've always viewed Ricky as a solid starting NBA PG even without the shooting improvement we saw last last season. Moreover, because of his consistently elite free throw shorting, I've always thought Ricky could develop into a decent perimeter shooter over time.
TheFuture wrote:Q I'm more getting at the fact that Ricky just doesnt cut it spotting up, being a PnR threat, taking advantage of a big man on switches, etc (Fox, DSJ, and Dunn show ability to do some of that). I also believe the positives would outweigh the negatives for Dunn if he had the green light from the start of the year. I think most here are tired of having "the next year promise" for Ricky after seeing the same ol year after year.
So we spend another season allowing our offense to be "maestro Ricky", and maybe we do hit the playoffs. But as an opposing team I just get the ball out of Ricky's hands. What do the wolves do then? Play iso because that is all they will know to do.
I loved the Wiggins and Lavine development Thibs was going for. But he couldn't afford to lose value on Ricky nor finish worse than Sam did, so he reverted to the only way of making Ricky useful.
Now, if Ricky suddenly becomes a Nash or even a 30 + year old Kidd 3 pt threat then I'll gladly eat my crow. After 3+ years of off season "work", yet still seeing him throw line drives at the hoop - I'm not buying it.
I won't fault anyone for being skeptical about any further improvement to Ricky's shooting/scoring ability, as I myself am a skeptic. But I've always thought of him as a solid starting NBA PG despite this and a unique fit to our team in that our main scorers are on the wings along with the most offensively gifted big man in a generation. We were the #10 offense last season, despite having one of the lowest scoring benches in the league.
Not many other teams can fit Ricky in their offense the same way we can because they actually need their PG to carry a heavy scoring load. That makes him more valuable to us than what we can probably get back in the open market.
Q -- I think you're right that Ricky's more valueable to us than most other teams because we have players at other positions to carry the scoring load. And like you, I've always viewed Ricky as a solid starting NBA PG even without the shooting improvement we saw last last season. Moreover, because of his consistently elite free throw shorting, I've always thought Ricky could develop into a decent perimeter shooter over time.
Yeah, we'll see what happens. I just think it's lazy to point at Ricky as the source of our ills simply because he's been the constant variable throughout all the losing. Team defense is by far the #1 problem with this team dating back three seasons ago. A PG can only do so much to impact team defense and Ricky is probably in the 2nd tier of defensive PGs after Chris Paul, Patrick Beverley, and Marcus Smart.
Also, I'm not ruling out Dunn as a potential long-term replacement for Ricky. He's going to ultimately be among one of the better perimeter defenders in the league. If he can get a halfway decent shot, he could very well be the right answer.
I just don't see PG as an area requiring front office focus this summer, but perhaps Thibs sees it differently. We shall see.
TheFuture wrote:Q I'm more getting at the fact that Ricky just doesnt cut it spotting up, being a PnR threat, taking advantage of a big man on switches, etc (Fox, DSJ, and Dunn show ability to do some of that). I also believe the positives would outweigh the negatives for Dunn if he had the green light from the start of the year. I think most here are tired of having "the next year promise" for Ricky after seeing the same ol year after year.
So we spend another season allowing our offense to be "maestro Ricky", and maybe we do hit the playoffs. But as an opposing team I just get the ball out of Ricky's hands. What do the wolves do then? Play iso because that is all they will know to do.
I loved the Wiggins and Lavine development Thibs was going for. But he couldn't afford to lose value on Ricky nor finish worse than Sam did, so he reverted to the only way of making Ricky useful.
Now, if Ricky suddenly becomes a Nash or even a 30 + year old Kidd 3 pt threat then I'll gladly eat my crow. After 3+ years of off season "work", yet still seeing him throw line drives at the hoop - I'm not buying it.
I won't fault anyone for being skeptical about any further improvement to Ricky's shooting/scoring ability, as I myself am a skeptic. But I've always thought of him as a solid starting NBA PG despite this and a unique fit to our team in that our main scorers are on the wings along with the most offensively gifted big man in a generation. We were the #10 offense last season, despite having one of the lowest scoring benches in the league.
Not many other teams can fit Ricky in their offense the same way we can because they actually need their PG to carry a heavy scoring load. That makes him more valuable to us than what we can probably get back in the open market.
Another couple thoughts:
can you survive even a round in the playoffs by having your main playmaker being a nonscoring threat?
We harp on Wiggins for "not doing shit", but then on the other end "he is a 20+ ppg scorer at 21 years old". I've stated such myself. We also harp on KAT for not focusing on defense, his offense/rebounding doesn't need to be mentioned. There must be a correlation between our pg and their development/gameplay. They absolutely HAVE to go off for us to even have a chance (yes our bench needs to be far better). Ricky's assist numbers are more a byproduct of that then the actual accelerant - all 3 are that good offensively. LaVine, Dunn, Wiggins etc. Could feed Towns more and rack up 2-5 easy assists per game ( I know Ricky does make plenty of plays that they will never even see). I vote a more offensively efficient 15ppg/6ast player at the pg has a positive impact in the other areas of the game for our young guns. With less heavy lifting at 22 they would fare better defensively (or at least have a chance to focus on it) and at do shit stats.
Future Q nailed it when he said Ricky is more valuable to the Wolves than another team. I don't see any team giving up a lottery pick for him. If you get a draft pick it's probably a pick in the 20's. That's probably not enough to get back for a guy that is at worst at the good end of fringe starter.
Furthermore what if what we saw from Rubio for a decent stretch is a guy that can build on that? People forget the guy is a few months from turning 27 and despite being a pro since he was 14 or whatever only has a little over 4 years worth of actual NBA games worth of experience and a large chunk of that was him coming off a major injury. Selling high on Rubio might not even get you back a better player. About the only thing worse than trying to trade a solid but not sure starting PG is trying to deal a true center that can't really guard mobile PFs. Teams really don't need more than a couple of those true centers on an entire roster because of the way the game is trending now.
I'm a Rubio fan but this last season made me resigned to the fact he could be traded. I'm not even against him being traded really. I just don't see him as some asset to cash in on because he doesn't have that kind of value. He is too unique and to some extent you have to actually change the way you play to get the most out of him. A team can sign Darren collison and he is a plug and play guy. He can do a bit of whatever and I don't think he is a bad defender either. Many PGs aren't that good in that end anyway. Unless something changes either on our roster or for some other team I just don't see a deal that makes sense. Maybe a team doesn't get a PG in the draft and really strikes out in FA or has a significant injury...but will they have anything to offer and will Rubio be a guy they really want? We will see.
It's kinda funny in a way because Rubio is a guy that there are thousands of posts about how teams will pick on him offensively even though the Wolves project to have slot of other scoring options. The Celtics had the opposite problem where IT was the scorer with solid players around him but teams started attacking him defensively and it was a problem although he maybe would have held up better at times if he wasn't slowed by that hip injury. I'm not letting him off the hook there but that should be noted.
Rubio arguably had the best year of his career with a very slow start playing for a coach that supposedly didn't want him here didn't have an offense that fit his etc etc. Is there ANY real possibility that Rubio playing in the same system for the same coach (that's only happened with Adelman) who probably has a greater appreciation for Rubio than he did when he took the job? People are too willing to cast aside the possibility Rubio still could become a better player. I get it it seems like he has been here forever but he is heading into his prime now. I don't see a team dying to get the guy so why not keep him and hope the 5-10% or what we chance he becomes a better player (however your definition of that is) might end up being worth it.
If we could get Portland's pick at 20 for taking on Crabbe, Harkless or Leonard, I'd do that deal. 20 would get us a nice pick. Jonathan Jeanne would probably be my pick there, but there are some other interesting guys that will be available around that spot including possibly Anunoby, Giles, Hartenstein, Bell and Swanigan.
I guess I just consider going with the same failing product for another year and hoping for a new outcome as a terrible business idea. So we say Ricky doesn't have much value outside of here, then what kind of asset is that? I'd reckon it is one you would rather move on from than retain. Especially when you can get some value now vs. no value later. If he doesn't fit elsewhere, maybe that means we are lagging behind on where everything is inevitably going to end up? You do not build around something not working just because you've already invested in it and can't get equal value for it. You sell it while you still can.
If your pg can get 15 assists in a game, great. Doesn't mean shit if he isn't respected to score in close games. There is a definite correlation between Ricky's play and our inability to win close games the last 3+ years.
Again, I hadn't assumed he would be worth a lottery pick, I had asked what he was viewed as being worth.
So we have the most offensively gifted big man in a generation, and two 22 year olds who can average 20 pts in their sleep, but we need Ricky Rubio to set them up? I'm moving on from that party. Give me an offensive threat who isnt IT bad on D and pair him with Dunn as our PGs.
I guess I just consider going with the same failing product for another year and hoping for a new outcome as a terrible business idea. So we say Ricky doesn't have much value outside of here, then what kind of asset is that? I'd reckon it is one you would rather move on from than retain. Especially when you can get some value now vs. no value later. If he doesn't fit elsewhere, maybe that means we are lagging behind on where everything is inevitably going to end up? You do not build around something not working just because you've already invested in it and can't get equal value for it. You sell it while you still can.
If your pg can get 15 assists in a game, great. Doesn't mean shit if he isn't respected to score in close games. There is a definite correlation between Ricky's play and our inability to win close games the last 3+ years.
Again, I hadn't assumed he would be worth a lottery pick, I had asked what he was viewed as being worth.
So we have the most offensively gifted big man in a generation, and two 22 year olds who can average 20 pts in their sleep, but we need Ricky Rubio to set them up? I'm moving on from that party. Give me an offensive threat who isnt IT bad on D and pair him with Dunn as our PGs.
The downside to that is that everyone else needs to step up as passers to get away with that and this team hasn't shown the ability to do what when Ricky's off the court. If it's an iso heavy team, the passing just isn't gonna be there.
Also, if this team has to be constructed to where they have to win games 120-115, I don't think Thibs can function that way.
I guess I just consider going with the same failing product for another year and hoping for a new outcome as a terrible business idea. So we say Ricky doesn't have much value outside of here, then what kind of asset is that? I'd reckon it is one you would rather move on from than retain. Especially when you can get some value now vs. no value later. If he doesn't fit elsewhere, maybe that means we are lagging behind on where everything is inevitably going to end up? You do not build around something not working just because you've already invested in it and can't get equal value for it. You sell it while you still can.
If your pg can get 15 assists in a game, great. Doesn't mean shit if he isn't respected to score in close games. There is a definite correlation between Ricky's play and our inability to win close games the last 3+ years.
Again, I hadn't assumed he would be worth a lottery pick, I had asked what he was viewed as being worth.
So we have the most offensively gifted big man in a generation, and two 22 year olds who can average 20 pts in their sleep, but we need Ricky Rubio to set them up? I'm moving on from that party. Give me an offensive threat who isnt IT bad on D and pair him with Dunn as our PGs.
The downside to that is that everyone else needs to step up as passers to get away with that and this team hasn't shown the ability to do what when Ricky's off the court. If it's an iso heavy team, the passing just isn't gonna be there.
Also, if this team has to be constructed to where they have to win games 120-115, I don't think Thibs can function that way.
I get where you are coming from but if all you get back for him is some level of guy you could sign in FA then what is the point of that? You are basically trading him for almost nothing. There have been plenty of worthwhile NBA players over the years that didn't have much trade value but still were relatively good players. Illyasova is an example of that. He was traded 3 times in what like 8 months or something? Nobody got much back but he doesn't suck.
Again the idea that Rubio is a failed thing over and over again isn't completely fair either. I've outlined why. Was Rubionreally supposed to elevate some of these rosters the last few years? Was Darren Collison going to help us win 10 more games? Regardless unless there is a plan to bring in another player that is actually legit or has significant promise (could happen in the draft) I don't see why we should trade him now for whatever scraps some team might give us. Teams have imperfect players all the time. If Dunn figures it out and start looking like the guy he will play you can be sure of that. Right now he hasn't shown he can be that guy. What I think would be great is adding a combo guard that can fill it up at least some nights to help the situation. If you pick the right guy you might be able to get them pretty cheap.
Andre Miller was another guy even years ago when the 3 pointer wasn't all that who wasn't valued super high at times throughout his career because he was unique. He was valued higher than Rubio obviously because he was a better player but there were few teams that were willing to make their offense one where you put the ball in his hands and let him do good things. Rubio has that same type of thing AND it's even worse now teams want to be even more share the ball and the 3 is even more important. Rubio is here he competes he plays D he is a terrific FT shooter. He showed some signs of life as a scorer last season. Why not see what you can get out of him another season or few months?
I was just looking at some little clips of workouts on twitter that DX posted. John Collins is a guy Lip really was pumping up weeks ago...he moves really well and crazy athletic. Its weird he is said to not be able to defend as he has plenty of physical tools even if he isn't super strong. If he ever figured out how to defend he would be a nice player even if he didn't stretch the floor. He could end up being a David Lee in his prime type which would be a pretty good player to have around.
So if Thibs prefers to keep Rubio for next year and does not want to draft a PG, it would be wise to make people think he is willing to move Rubio so that it looks like he would happily take a PG in the draft. Maybe 3 or 4 PGs will go in the top 6!
Okay, you can resume with the normal non-conspiracy discussions... :)
