Game Report - Wolves v. Celtics

[thedoper]

I think KAT has been pretty impressive since Jimmy left. I'm reserving judgement on his advanced stats for a bit more time because those first 10 games are skewing his numbers in such an extreme way. Saturday was not his best game, but Horford makes a living on picking on less experienced bigs, just ask Embid from last year's playoffs. I think it's more than fair to point out some of the areas of improvement for him, and Q's analysis is fair of his shortcomings. But he's a big who plays outside in and is hovering just below 50/40/90, it's insane. Further advancements in the nuances of his game (pick setting, defensive decision making) make him super elite and beyond the other bigs he's being comped to here. Either way it's pretty close at present. Jokic's D still seems pretty bad. They're rolling as a team so Jokic is the hot commodity now.

[Monster]

I get the Jokic comparison...

I don't get the Nurkic stuff. If we're looking for impact by a big man... look East. Check out Vucevic in Orlando...

Player A: 20.6 ppg / 12.0 reb / 2.3 apg / 0.8 stl / 1.6 blk / 48.7% fg / 39.6% 3fg / 89.4% ft / 1.2 OBPM / 1.5 DBPM / 20.6 PER

Player B: 21.0 ppg / 11.3 reb / 3.8 apg / 1.0 stl / 1.1 blk / 55.3% fg / 40.9% 3fg / 84.3% ft / 4.5 OBPM / 3.1 DBPM / 27.2 PER

The boxscore stats are pretty close. But look at those advanced stats... I don't know how those are comprised... and I don't even know how relevant they are... but they do seem to suggest Q is onto something with the "difference-making" stuff.

Go look at Nurkic's PER and OBPM/DBPM versus KAT and you'll know why I mentioned him.

As for Vusevic, he's come out of no where and has made a huge leap after years of solid-and-steady play. Perhaps coaching has had something to do with it? I believe Steve Clifford replaced Frank Vogel. It's the rest of Orlando's roster that leaves a lot to be desired.

I didn't use him as a comparison point to KAT because he is a number of years older and with more experience, but yeah, he is outplaying KAT along with a number of other Centers this season.

KAT's been solid, but he's not giving us the type of play we need from the cornerstone of the franchise.

And I believe Vucevic is in a contract year... so his sudden ascent seems even more suspect.

As for Nurkic... I see he's only playing 26 mpg. Until he can make it even one season averaging 27 mpg... I can't think of him as one of the best bigs in the game.

Vuc is having a terrific year I'd guess some of that is coaching. I've wondered for a while why a team that's playijg him hasn't tried to get more out of him on that end. He has always had an ability to score from all I've tthe floor and last year he built on that and this year he is shooting 40% from 3. I'm not saying the guy is a near max player or anything and yes he is in a contract year but I'm not exactly shocked the guy is getting buckets.

Nurkic is a nice starting center he is a solid cog in the machine he isn't a guy that people game plan around. You can bet teams game plan every single game around how to stop Towns. It's pretty damn obvious that's exactly what they do. Again Towns has flaws but he has actually improved them this year. Has he progressed enough? Probably not but there has been progress made. Let's see how he ends up this season.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I get the Jokic comparison...

I don't get the Nurkic stuff. If we're looking for impact by a big man... look East. Check out Vucevic in Orlando...

Player A: 20.6 ppg / 12.0 reb / 2.3 apg / 0.8 stl / 1.6 blk / 48.7% fg / 39.6% 3fg / 89.4% ft / 1.2 OBPM / 1.5 DBPM / 20.6 PER

Player B: 21.0 ppg / 11.3 reb / 3.8 apg / 1.0 stl / 1.1 blk / 55.3% fg / 40.9% 3fg / 84.3% ft / 4.5 OBPM / 3.1 DBPM / 27.2 PER

The boxscore stats are pretty close. But look at those advanced stats... I don't know how those are comprised... and I don't even know how relevant they are... but they do seem to suggest Q is onto something with the "difference-making" stuff.

Go look at Nurkic's PER and OBPM/DBPM versus KAT and you'll know why I mentioned him.

As for Vusevic, he's come out of no where and has made a huge leap after years of solid-and-steady play. Perhaps coaching has had something to do with it? I believe Steve Clifford replaced Frank Vogel. It's the rest of Orlando's roster that leaves a lot to be desired.

I didn't use him as a comparison point to KAT because he is a number of years older and with more experience, but yeah, he is outplaying KAT along with a number of other Centers this season.

KAT's been solid, but he's not giving us the type of play we need from the cornerstone of the franchise.

And I believe Vucevic is in a contract year... so his sudden ascent seems even more suspect.

As for Nurkic... I see he's only playing 26 mpg. Until he can make it even one season averaging 27 mpg... I can't think of him as one of the best bigs in the game.

Vuc is having a terrific year I'd guess some of that is coaching. I've wondered for a while why a team that's playijg him hasn't tried to get more out of him on that end. He has always had an ability to score from all I've tthe floor and last year he built on that and this year he is shooting 40% from 3. I'm not saying the guy is a near max player or anything and yes he is in a contract year but I'm not exactly shocked the guy is getting buckets.

Nurkic is a nice starting center he is a solid cog in the machine he isn't a guy that people game plan around. You can bet teams game plan every single game around how to stop Towns. It's pretty damn obvious that's exactly what they do. Again Towns has flaws but he has actually improved them this year. Has he progressed enough? Probably not but there has been progress made. Let's see how he ends up this season.

Maybe. But just who are teams focusing on with that Orlando team?

Gordon?
Ross?
Augustin?
Forunier?
Isaac?
Bamba?

In any event... at least Orlando has Vucevic getting the most shots up.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think KAT has been pretty impressive since Jimmy left. I'm reserving judgement on his advanced stats for a bit more time because those first 10 games are skewing his numbers in such an extreme way. Saturday was not his best game, but Horford makes a living on picking on less experienced bigs, just ask Embid from last year's playoffs. I think it's more than fair to point out some of the areas of improvement for him, and Q's analysis is fair of his shortcomings. But he's a big who plays outside in and is hovering just below 50/40/90, it's insane. Further advancements in the nuances of his game (pick setting, defensive decision making) make him super elite and beyond the other bigs he's being comped to here. Either way it's pretty close at present. Jokic's D still seems pretty bad. They're rolling as a team so Jokic is the hot commodity now.

Yeah, I'm not on the "trade him the hell out of here" train like I am with Wiggins, who I have completely given up on. I still think he's our franchise cornerstone, but I'm just disappointed with his progress and maturity (as a player). Hopefully he will kick it into a higher gear as this season progresses.

[kekgeek]

I think KAT has been pretty impressive since Jimmy left. I'm reserving judgement on his advanced stats for a bit more time because those first 10 games are skewing his numbers in such an extreme way. Saturday was not his best game, but Horford makes a living on picking on less experienced bigs, just ask Embid from last year's playoffs. I think it's more than fair to point out some of the areas of improvement for him, and Q's analysis is fair of his shortcomings. But he's a big who plays outside in and is hovering just below 50/40/90, it's insane. Further advancements in the nuances of his game (pick setting, defensive decision making) make him super elite and beyond the other bigs he's being comped to here. Either way it's pretty close at present. Jokic's D still seems pretty bad. They're rolling as a team so Jokic is the hot commodity now.

Yeah, I'm not on the "trade him the hell out of here" train like I am with Wiggins, who I have completely given up on. I still think he's our franchise cornerstone, but I'm just disappointed with his progress and maturity (as a player). Hopefully he will kick it into a higher gear as this season progresses.

I understand where you are coming from. Correct me if i'm wrong but you don't think he is bad and still think he is all star level talent and you are happy that he is on our team.

But he was supposed to be this unicorn type player that was a franchise difference maker. Possible MVP and at worst a top 10 player in the NBA. That could be the best player on a championship team.

He hasn't made that jump. He has made subtle improvements but not the big ones and other bigs across the league have caught or passed him. Also I will still make the point is can you win a championship with an offensive center anymore. Last championship centers zaza/ Thompson/zaza/joel Anthony/ Chandler/splitter

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think KAT has been pretty impressive since Jimmy left. I'm reserving judgement on his advanced stats for a bit more time because those first 10 games are skewing his numbers in such an extreme way. Saturday was not his best game, but Horford makes a living on picking on less experienced bigs, just ask Embid from last year's playoffs. I think it's more than fair to point out some of the areas of improvement for him, and Q's analysis is fair of his shortcomings. But he's a big who plays outside in and is hovering just below 50/40/90, it's insane. Further advancements in the nuances of his game (pick setting, defensive decision making) make him super elite and beyond the other bigs he's being comped to here. Either way it's pretty close at present. Jokic's D still seems pretty bad. They're rolling as a team so Jokic is the hot commodity now.

Yeah, I'm not on the "trade him the hell out of here" train like I am with Wiggins, who I have completely given up on. I still think he's our franchise cornerstone, but I'm just disappointed with his progress and maturity (as a player). Hopefully he will kick it into a higher gear as this season progresses.

I understand where you are coming from. Correct me if i'm wrong but you don't think he is bad and still think he is all star level talent and you are happy that he is on our team.

But he was supposed to be this unicorn type player that was a franchise difference maker. Possible MVP and at worst a top 10 player in the NBA. That could be the best player on a championship team.

He hasn't made that jump. He has made subtle improvements but not the big ones and other bigs across the league have caught or passed him. Also I will still make the point is can you win a championship with an offensive center anymore. Last championship centers zaza/ Thompson/zaza/joel Anthony/ Chandler/splitter

Yes, still happy we have him, but he has not met my lofty expectations this season. I just don't see the growth others seem to see. I think the recent defensive improvement is mostly due to RoCo and Saric.

I've never been a fan of any set formula or template for winning a title, but one thing to think about is that there just aren't that many really good offensive centers. That's actually a feature, not a bug! KAT is unicorn-ish in the myriad ways he can score and the efficiency in which he can do it. Unfortunately Thibs has chosen not to make him the clear #1 option and design more of the offense around him.

I still go back and forth on whether he should start games paired with a legit defensive Center and play PF, then slide to Center when we play smaller teams. Of course that means Saric remains a 6th man big and I know a lot of folks view him as starting next to KAT over the long run. I'm not sure what the right answer is in the absence of KAT becoming a defensive monster and gaining 25 lbs. of muscle.

[Lipoli390]

Well, I wouldn't even consider trading KAT for either Jokic or Nurkic, especially the latter. Remember this post a few years down the road.

KAT outplayed Jokic and Anthony Davis in his head-to-head matchups with each so far this season. He and Nurkic were about even in their matchup.

Let's look at the stats at the end of the season. KAT's early season stats were certainly impacted by the Butler drama. Better yet, let's contemplate KAT playing for a head coach as good as Denver's or Portland's. I'm like to imagine a head coach who doesn't run iso offense through point guards, especially nonplaymakers like Teague.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Well, I wouldn't even consider trading KAT for either Jokic or Nurkic, especially the latter. Remember this post a few years down the road.

KAT outplayed Jokic and Anthony Davis in his head-to-head matchups with each so far this season. He and Nurkic were about even in their matchup.

Let's look at the stats at the end of the season. KAT's early season stats were certainly impacted by the Butler drama. Better yet, let's contemplate KAT playing for a head coach as good as Denver's or Portland's. I'm like to imagine a head coach who doesn't run iso offense through point guards, especially nonplaymakers like Teague.

That matchup earlier this season is a great example of what makes comparing the two big guys so interesting...

Towns: 22 points / 7 reb / 2 ast / 7 - 14 fg / 6 TOs
Jokic: 7 points / 12 reb / 10 ast / 3 - 13 fg / 3 TOs

Jokic's shot wasn't falling that night... but he found other ways to help his team win the game. It's a tough call either way you go. Personally, I like the idea of a guy as skilled with KAT with that much offensive potential. He can be great and I find it astonishing that the Wolves offense still doesn't revolve around arguably the best inside/outside scoring big in recent NBA history.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

It's not only on the player to get better, but also the organization to help that player to get better.

Ther kids haven't had any help.

[Monster]

It was brought up on Dunc'd on that Jokic has 3 games of 15 assists. Some dude I've never heard of in the 80's that played for the Pacers had one and Wilt had 10. Jokic May go down as one of the best passing bigs of all time. He is already a nice player and likely will get better. He will be a fun player to watch the next few years.