longstrangetrip wrote:Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.
Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?
Who?
Yeah, fewer and fewer, abe. There are still some who point to the team's winning record last year, recent success, and fairly consistent offensive stats, and give Thibs a lot of credit for those things. I guess none of us really know how much credit Thibs deserves for the offense, and how much is primarily due to very talented players. I would say the division now is more between those who think Thibs has lost this team and those who don't believe that. Largely those in the first camp are those who attend more games and see the interaction between Thibs and his players and Thibs and his assistant coaches...it's quite telling.
The idea that Thibs has lost this team like Cam said seems silly to me and I thought that BEFORE the trade. I'm not talking about all the stuff I'm talking about him as a coach. What often gets lost in the terrible start is the injuries. Teague Wiggins misses games as well as Rose plus Butler missing games for whatever reason. C.J. Williams played PG for this team a couple games! Add that to a tough schedule to start...oh and what about all these other teams that are sucking like houston utah Miami on and on what hell is their excuse? Meanwhile Thibs has lost his team...what a joke especially after this stretch of games. Seriously
lipoli390 wrote:I just watched Gibson's interview. My main take-aways have nothing to do with Thibodeau's head coaching issues.
One of the more interesting comments was Gibson's saying that players have always been talking and trying to hold each other accountable, but the difference since the Butler trade is that the players are now doing it in a positive way. He mentioned that Rose was one of the most vocal vets at halftime.
Another interesting comment was about young guys playing free and easy (first half), but how the vets have to remind them that "we're playing for something" and to take it personally.
Overall, what went on in the lockerroom at half time strikes me as an example of veteran leadership from Taj and Rose, getting the rest of the team to get serious, take some pride in themselves and play with purpose and heart. I suspect the message was directed to Teague as much as it was to KAT and Wiggins. It might have also been directed to Covington who was playing matador defense for the first time since coming here. The good news is that the message got through as Wolves players played aggressive defense, actually challenging three-point shots as well as shots in the paint.
I suspect that the best teams have players who hold each other accountable. And I'll credit Thibodeau the PBO for bringing in vets like Gibson and Rose, more recently Covington, who can help build that culture of accountability. I've never thought of Thibodeau as someone who inspires his players, so it needs to be the players who inspire one another.
My issue with Thibodeau has always been tactical. The Wolves are dong a lot more switching on defense now. I recall Teague complaining recently that the Wolves switch less than all the other teams in the League. Did Thibodeau finally adjust based on the will of complaining players or because he now has Covington? We all saw the chart from last season showing that opposing teams feasted against the Wolves from behind the arc and in the paint, suggesting that Thibodeau focused his defensive strategy on stopping two-point jump shots. And we all know that the Wolves were dead last in 3-point attempts last season. Those things don't just happen - they reflect the way the players are instructed and drilled in practice and in games. That's especially true with a coach as controlling and directive as Thibodeau. The good news is that Thibodeau seems to finally be modifying his strategic approach on both ends. Unfortunately, he still runs a stagnant offense that will ultimately hold this team back. Maybe Thibodeau will adjust that as well, but I'm not holding my breath.
But when it comes to effort, the players have to hold each other accountable. And I'll credit Thibodeau the PBO for bringing in players who can do just that and, other than Butler, do it effectively.
Lip I think what Taj was actually saying when he said "free and easy" was referring to the way the Rockets we're playing in that first half not the way the Wolves were conducting themselves. I absolutely almost got that idea too and it wasn't obvious the way he stated it but later when he said something similar the 2nd time it was easier to catch and see what he meant. I do think he was saying guys were not taking in personal and giving that extra etc but he wasn't ripping them for them being too free. I mention it because I think it's an important distinction. Taj certainly isn't a guy that's above having a laugh here and there.
longstrangetrip wrote:Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.
Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?
Who?
Yeah, fewer and fewer, abe. There are still some who point to the team's winning record last year, recent success, and fairly consistent offensive stats, and give Thibs a lot of credit for those things. I guess none of us really know how much credit Thibs deserves for the offense, and how much is primarily due to very talented players. I would say the division now is more between those who think Thibs has lost this team and those who don't believe that. Largely those in the first camp are those who attend more games and see the interaction between Thibs and his players and Thibs and his assistant coaches...it's quite telling.
Who?
Who thinks Thibs hasn't lost the team? I see a couple in this thread who say it's silly to suggest he has. None of us really know, but I am just saying the difference between the attention our players give Thibs compared to the attention opposing players give their coaches is quite apparent...I watch the benches very closely through my binocs.
longstrangetrip wrote:Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.
Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?
Who?
Yeah, fewer and fewer, abe. There are still some who point to the team's winning record last year, recent success, and fairly consistent offensive stats, and give Thibs a lot of credit for those things. I guess none of us really know how much credit Thibs deserves for the offense, and how much is primarily due to very talented players. I would say the division now is more between those who think Thibs has lost this team and those who don't believe that. Largely those in the first camp are those who attend more games and see the interaction between Thibs and his players and Thibs and his assistant coaches...it's quite telling.
Who?
Who thinks Thibs hasn't lost the team? I see a couple in this thread who say it's silly to suggest he has. None of us really know, but I am just saying the difference between the attention our players give Thibs compared to the attention opposing players give their coaches is quite apparent...I watch the benches very closely through my binocs.
So opining that Thibs doesn't seem to have lost the team considering they're on an 8 - 3 streak is being a "Thibs supporter?"
longstrangetrip wrote:Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.
Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?
Who?
Yeah, fewer and fewer, abe. There are still some who point to the team's winning record last year, recent success, and fairly consistent offensive stats, and give Thibs a lot of credit for those things. I guess none of us really know how much credit Thibs deserves for the offense, and how much is primarily due to very talented players. I would say the division now is more between those who think Thibs has lost this team and those who don't believe that. Largely those in the first camp are those who attend more games and see the interaction between Thibs and his players and Thibs and his assistant coaches...it's quite telling.
Who?
Who thinks Thibs hasn't lost the team? I see a couple in this thread who say it's silly to suggest he has. None of us really know, but I am just saying the difference between the attention our players give Thibs compared to the attention opposing players give their coaches is quite apparent...I watch the benches very closely through my binocs.
So opining that Thibs doesn't seem to have lost the team considering they're on an 8 - 3 streak is being a "Thibs supporter?"
Tough crowd. I guess...
I watch games on TV and when they cut to the sidelines and the coach is talking is VERY common to see players just looking very chill like they aren't paying any attention and that's the guys that are gonna be playing. The idea that players are locked in to what the coach says every second regardless of the coach every time one etc is a myth and one I'll admit I absolutely believed needed to be the case. Now if we are talking last couple minutes of a close game yeah players are likely pretty locked in there.
longstrangetrip wrote:Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.
Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?
Who?
Yeah, fewer and fewer, abe. There are still some who point to the team's winning record last year, recent success, and fairly consistent offensive stats, and give Thibs a lot of credit for those things. I guess none of us really know how much credit Thibs deserves for the offense, and how much is primarily due to very talented players. I would say the division now is more between those who think Thibs has lost this team and those who don't believe that. Largely those in the first camp are those who attend more games and see the interaction between Thibs and his players and Thibs and his assistant coaches...it's quite telling.
Who?
Who thinks Thibs hasn't lost the team? I see a couple in this thread who say it's silly to suggest he has. None of us really know, but I am just saying the difference between the attention our players give Thibs compared to the attention opposing players give their coaches is quite apparent...I watch the benches very closely through my binocs.
So opining that Thibs doesn't seem to have lost the team considering they're on an 8 - 3 streak is being a "Thibs supporter?"
Tough crowd. I guess...
I was listening to the ESPN morning show with Golic and they had Jimmy Butler on the other day. He refused to get caught up in comparing Simmons and Embid/Towns and Wigs, but he did mention that while he loves Thibs, the coaching schemes are completely different with all other coaches. Butler was explaining that it would take a little time for the team to mesh, but it was definitely a shot at Thibs.
How many times do you need to hear Thibs tell Rose to run the iso offense.
longstrangetrip wrote:Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.
Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?
Who?
Yeah, fewer and fewer, abe. There are still some who point to the team's winning record last year, recent success, and fairly consistent offensive stats, and give Thibs a lot of credit for those things. I guess none of us really know how much credit Thibs deserves for the offense, and how much is primarily due to very talented players. I would say the division now is more between those who think Thibs has lost this team and those who don't believe that. Largely those in the first camp are those who attend more games and see the interaction between Thibs and his players and Thibs and his assistant coaches...it's quite telling.
Who?
Who thinks Thibs hasn't lost the team? I see a couple in this thread who say it's silly to suggest he has. None of us really know, but I am just saying the difference between the attention our players give Thibs compared to the attention opposing players give their coaches is quite apparent...I watch the benches very closely through my binocs.
So opining that Thibs doesn't seem to have lost the team considering they're on an 8 - 3 streak is being a "Thibs supporter?"
Tough crowd. I guess...
I watch games on TV and when they cut to the sidelines and the coach is talking is VERY common to see players just looking very chill like they aren't paying any attention and that's the guys that are gonna be playing. The idea that players are locked in to what the coach says every second regardless of the coach every time one etc is a myth and one I'll admit I absolutely believed needed to be the case. Now if we are talking last couple minutes of a close game yeah players are likely pretty locked in there.
I read Paul Shirley's book a few years back. For those who don't remember him... he was the 12th man on the Nash-led Suns for a year or two... and wrote a column for ESPN for spell about what it was like to be a random deep NBA bench player.
Even though he was on a very successful team, he had no problem admitting he was more interested in pretty girls in the stands than on anything Mike D'Antoni had to say... unless it was a 30-point blowout and he might get in the game.
I think his NBA career ended when the Wolves chose Eddie Griffin over him after training camp. For the record, that was Griffin's last NBA season... he shot 25.9% from the field.
longstrangetrip wrote:Evaluating Thibs is a complicated exercise, so I get why there are still supporters here (although I suspect some of them just enjoy having a good argument). On the positive side, he talks basketball better than most coaches I listen too, certainly better than Sam Mitchell...he seems to have a lot of basketball knowledge. And I admit some of us Thibs detractors may be reading too much into Monday's post-game comments. But on the other hand, there is substantial evidence that Thibs has almost totally lost control of this team. Those that find themselves in town need to take in a game at TC to see this in person. The lack of attention many of the players showed while Thibs was talking during timeouts was astonishing to me Monday night. I think observing team behavior Monday night is what made the post-game comments so much more telling for me.
Are there still Thibs "supporters" here?
Who?
Yeah, fewer and fewer, abe. There are still some who point to the team's winning record last year, recent success, and fairly consistent offensive stats, and give Thibs a lot of credit for those things. I guess none of us really know how much credit Thibs deserves for the offense, and how much is primarily due to very talented players. I would say the division now is more between those who think Thibs has lost this team and those who don't believe that. Largely those in the first camp are those who attend more games and see the interaction between Thibs and his players and Thibs and his assistant coaches...it's quite telling.
Who?
Who thinks Thibs hasn't lost the team? I see a couple in this thread who say it's silly to suggest he has. None of us really know, but I am just saying the difference between the attention our players give Thibs compared to the attention opposing players give their coaches is quite apparent...I watch the benches very closely through my binocs.
So opining that Thibs doesn't seem to have lost the team considering they're on an 8 - 3 streak is being a "Thibs supporter?"
Tough crowd. I guess...
I was listening to the ESPN morning show with Golic and they had Jimmy Butler on the other day. He refused to get caught up in comparing Simmons and Embid/Towns and Wigs, but he did mention that while he loves Thibs, the coaching schemes are completely different with all other coaches. Butler was explaining that it would take a little time for the team to mesh, but it was definitely a shot at Thibs.
How many times do you need to hear Thibs tell Rose to run the iso offense.
Ok. But to be fair... I'm still wondering how simply saying Thibs may not have lost the team... or that he isn't the worst coach in the history of the NBA... or that he shouldn't be impaled by a pitchfork immediately... is deemed being a "Thibs supporter?"
I was listening to the ESPN morning show with Golic and they had Jimmy Butler on the other day. He refused to get caught up in comparing Simmons and Embid/Towns and Wigs, but he did mention that while he loves Thibs, the coaching schemes are completely different with all other coaches. Butler was explaining that it would take a little time for the team to mesh, but it was definitely a shot at Thibs.
How many times do you need to hear Thibs tell Rose to run the iso offense.
Ok. But to be fair... I'm still wondering how simply saying Thibs may not have lost the team... or that he isn't the worst coach in the history of the NBA... or that he shouldn't be impaled by a pitchfork immediately... is deemed being a "Thibs supporter?"
Perhaps we're spending too much time quibbling about labels. I chuckle when I am labeled a "thibs hater" when I know that is far from factual, and you don't like being called a Thibs supporter...fine. However if someone here has called Thibs "the worst coach in the history of the NBA", I must have missed that post. There's a chasm of difference between criticizing Thibs' rotations, sideline demeanor, and offensive/defensive strategies. and calling him the worst coach in history...I don't think there is anyone here that would seriously make that claim. I think Thibs is a guy who has had some success in the past and seems to know the game, but also seems to be a very poor game manager...and I think that is holding this team back, and I would love to see him replaced. If that adds up to being a Thibs hater, so be it.
I still feel there is a lot of evidence that indicates that he has lost this team, but I frankly don't find those who don't share my opinion "silly".
