lipoli390 wrote:Now that we know who the Spurs got for Kawhi, it's interesting to speculate on what it might have taken for the Wolves to get Kawhi. Here are a couple of what I'd consider to be equivalent deals:
1. Wiggins, Patton and the Wolves top 20 protected 2019 1st round pick for Kawhi and Green.
2. Same as above, but substitute Butler for Wiggins.
My guess is that the Spurs would not have done either deal because they'd be helping a Western Conference rival. But I'd be interested in thoughts on whether either of these would be a deal you would have done as Wolves PBO.
1. DeRozan > Wiggins. Poetl > Patton. Plus, the West/East thing... So I don't see how the Wolves would be in the mix at all with that trade.
That being said... I don't think the Wolves are in the same spot as the Raptors where they'd have to take a flyer on the one-year rental. This franchise isn't at that crossroads yet.
2. I can see the Butler for Kawhi trade as more feasible because there are similarities between the two All Star players... the rub would be the Spurs confidence in being able to resign Butler. Giving up Leonard for a rental is risky at best.
I agree that the Spurs would likely say no to the Wiggins deal. I think there's a good chance they'd say yes to the Butler deal, although the conference rival factor would steer the Spurs towards the Toronto deal.
I agree with you completely that the Wolves are not yet at a franchise crossroad that would justify the high 1-year rental risk associated with Kawhi. In contrast, I think Toronto has reached that crossroad after an extended run of playoff appearances and what appears to be a team ceiling they can't breach by just tweaking their roster. Toronto has clearly reached that "go for it" point in its trajectory.
Smart deal for Toronto. They're rebuilding soon anyway. I could even see them dealing Kwahi at the deadline if they know it's not working out. Danny green is a nice asset to have on your team too.
lipoli390 wrote:Now that we know who the Spurs got for Kawhi, it's interesting to speculate on what it might have taken for the Wolves to get Kawhi. Here are a couple of what I'd consider to be equivalent deals:
1. Wiggins, Patton and the Wolves top 20 protected 2019 1st round pick for Kawhi and Green.
2. Same as above, but substitute Butler for Wiggins.
My guess is that the Spurs would not have done either deal because they'd be helping a Western Conference rival. But I'd be interested in thoughts on whether either of these would be a deal you would have done as Wolves PBO.
I would do the first trade in a second, either we get Kawhi and convince him to re-sign or he walks and we suddenly have a max slot for Butler's buddy Kyrie. Even with his faults I feel the allure of playing with a big man like Towns trumps Brooklyn in terms of Kyrie and Jimmy wanting to play together.
We've all marveled at what the Spurs have been able to do since they drafted Duncan. They've consistently been one of the best teams in the NBA for almost 20 years. In any league, especially one with a salary cap, that's an amazing accomplishment.
Now is a good time to reflect on how much of that was related to the professional, team-oriented culture they've built there. With whatever happened with Kawhi wanting out, he broke from that culture in a spectacular way.
It's just so weird to come from such a quiet and, it's safe to guess, unassuming guy. Maybe the reporting on his uncle and others around him is accurate and it's not really him, or maybe there's more to the guy than we thought. But if you would have picked any All-Star in the last 10 years and said this guy would sit out half the season (assuming he was healthy enough to play starting in January like he did) plus the playoffs to force a trade, Kawhi from the Spurs probably would have been the last guy anybody would have guessed. It's just so weird.
The thing I was shocked by was how much DeRozan wanted to be with the Raptors. That tells me they have something good going on there. I am surprised he would still feel that way after Casey was fired. I was all for us picking Rubio and DeRozan back in the day. I wonder if he would have felt the same way here.
Now that he is with the Spurs I will be curious what happens to his game. Will they make him a 3pt shooter like they did with Kawhine?
1. The spurs gave up and the Raptors got Danny Green in the deal. It's just 1year but that's a pretty good complimentary player. If the Raptors need something different Green is a heck of an asset to move
2. The Spurs didn't get OG back in the deal. If Leonard leaves after this year the Raptors still have some nocetalent and can rebuild. OG might not be a building block type but he is a nice Young complimentary piece.
Lots of love for Pop and understandably so but this was a crusty guy that connected with bored Tim Duncan. The stories about his interactions with Manu back in the day are hilarious. Manu was probably good for Pop he needed someone that made him have to deal with some creative/whacky play. To both their credit they figured it out.
Lots of love for the Spurs organization alsoand again understandably so. However you can easily argue they have overpaid a few player lately including this offseason. I like Belinelli but 2 years 12 million for a less bad version of Crawford? I think they could have done better and it's the Spurs...aren't they supposed to get these types of guys that played for Pop for a discount? Nope.
Anyway it will be interesting to see how this trade works out. The Spurs are basically built to have 2 high useage scorers with some complimentary players including shooter around them. If Leonard is healthy and that team takes another step it's a legit East contender. That's a talented roster they have.
1. The spurs gave up and the Raptors got Danny Green in the deal. It's just 1year but that's a pretty good complimentary player. If the Raptors need something different Green is a heck of an asset to move
2. The Spurs didn't get OG back in the deal. If Leonard leaves after this year the Raptors still have some nocetalent and can rebuild. OG might not be a building block type but he is a nice Young complimentary piece.
Lots of love for Pop and understandably so but this was a crusty guy that connected with bored Tim Duncan. The stories about his interactions with Manu back in the day are hilarious. Manu was probably good for Pop he needed someone that made him have to deal with some creative/whacky play. To both their credit they figured it out.
Lots of love for the Spurs organization alsoand again understandably so. However you can easily argue they have overpaid a few player lately including this offseason. I like Belinelli but 2 years 12 million for a less bad version of Crawford? I think they could have done better and it's the Spurs...aren't they supposed to get these types of guys that played for Pop for a discount? Nope.
Anyway it will be interesting to see how this trade works out. The Spurs are basically built to have 2 high useage scorers with some complimentary players including shooter around them. If Leonard is healthy and that team takes another step it's a legit East contender. That's a talented roster they have.
I'd take Belinelli at $6M per year for 2 years over Tolliver for $6M for one season. I think the Spurs took the best deal they could get for a guy whose people have told the world he doesn't want to go anywhere but LA and who has yet to show he's physically able to play. Otherwise, Pop has connected well with all his star players, including Manu and Tony Parker as well as LaMarcus Aldridge more recently. And he certainly had no trouble getting Kawhi to play hard and play the right way. Pop's record as head coach speaks for itself over many, many years and multiple roster iterations. Kawhi was an anomaly.
I've mentioned before that buyer should beware in any trade for Danny Green. I think if anyone ever benefited from playing for the Spurs and their system it was Green. I know I'm in the minority but i think it was a bad deal for Toronto. They traded a guy who wanted to be in Toronto for a guy who doesn't. And they took on Green who I can't see flourishing for the Raptors. They're not good enought to get to the finals, and this time next year they will be without Leonard.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I've mentioned before that buyer should beware in any trade for Danny Green. I think if anyone ever benefited from playing for the Spurs and their system it was Green. I know I'm in the minority but i think it was a bad deal for Toronto. They traded a guy who wanted to be in Toronto for a guy who doesn't. And they took on Green who I can't see flourishing for the Raptors. They're not good enought to get to the finals, and this time next year they will be without Leonard.
I'm shocked you said this. You are probably one of the biggest don't be complacent guys and if you can't win a championship change something to set you up for it.
Raptors had 0% to win a title with DeRozan. Now with Kawhi I would say there chances increased. Also if Kawhi and everyone else leaves they would be down to about 70 mil in cap. Stop plenty of cap room going forward.
They are going for a title and if it fails they got a great out plan. They did what you want the wolves to do and try and win a championship and don't be satisfied for anything else
1. The spurs gave up and the Raptors got Danny Green in the deal. It's just 1year but that's a pretty good complimentary player. If the Raptors need something different Green is a heck of an asset to move
2. The Spurs didn't get OG back in the deal. If Leonard leaves after this year the Raptors still have some nocetalent and can rebuild. OG might not be a building block type but he is a nice Young complimentary piece.
Lots of love for Pop and understandably so but this was a crusty guy that connected with bored Tim Duncan. The stories about his interactions with Manu back in the day are hilarious. Manu was probably good for Pop he needed someone that made him have to deal with some creative/whacky play. To both their credit they figured it out.
Lots of love for the Spurs organization alsoand again understandably so. However you can easily argue they have overpaid a few player lately including this offseason. I like Belinelli but 2 years 12 million for a less bad version of Crawford? I think they could have done better and it's the Spurs...aren't they supposed to get these types of guys that played for Pop for a discount? Nope.
Anyway it will be interesting to see how this trade works out. The Spurs are basically built to have 2 high useage scorers with some complimentary players including shooter around them. If Leonard is healthy and that team takes another step it's a legit East contender. That's a talented roster they have.
I'd take Belinelli at $6M per year for 2 years over Tolliver for $6M for one season. I think the Spurs took the best deal they could get for a guy whose people have told the world he doesn't want to go anywhere but LA and who has yet to show he's physically able to play. Otherwise, Pop has connected well with all his star players, including Manu and Tony Parker as well as LaMarcus Aldridge more recently. And he certainly had no trouble getting Kawhi to play hard and play the right way. Pop's record as head coach speaks for itself over many, many years and multiple roster iterations. Kawhi was an anomaly.
Thanks for bringing up Lamarcus Aldridge it was like 12 months ago he wanted to be traded. I'm just sayin :) The point is that while the Spurs getheaped on a ton of praise and rightly so...they haven't been quite as perfect as sometimes it is made out to be...the Patriots have some instances of this as well.
Lip you should look up some advanced stats on Belinelli. The defense is a real problem. I'll also mention Tolliver ranks better in advanced stats and hit more 3's last year. Belinelli is a wing so that adds to his value but there is no way he is a bargain and ai have been sort of a fan of his since his first couple years in the league.
