NY Post: Jimmy Butler’s Timberwolves frustration is now official

[Lipoli390]

I don't think the IT situation is comparable. Brad Stevens has a long time relationship with Hayward and had to fight Utah to get him to sign. Who knows what assurances or promises were made to Hayward to get him to sign. Plus, given the injury Hayward endured, I really don't think they want to deal with any bad PR. Hayward stays in Boston. Boston probably wants to keep both Tatum and Brown as their salaries are very attractive. If Boston wants a deal it will have to fork over Brown or the Sacremento pick and I'm sure we'd ask for both.

Assurances and promises went out the window as soon as he got injured and a better, elite player in the league became available. Everyone knows business is business and people move on. Additionally, Danny Ainge doesn't care about potentially bad PR. He is the ultimate move maker -- no emotions whatsoever, which is probably how it should be. Ainge traded Paul Pierce and Kevin Garnett out of Boston in order to rob Brooklyn of those picks. That move couldn't have been easy from a moral standpoint. Then just a year ago Ainge dealt Isaiah Thomas after a career year in which Thomas led the team to the Eastern Conference Final and was rehabbing from a severe hip injury. Oh, not to mention Thomas' sister died in a car accident during the playoffs and he played the day after. Ainge was brutal in his decision making there. If there's a move that can make the Celtics better, I have no doubt that Ainge is the guy that will make it regardless of morality and PR. Adding Jimmy Butler makes them a no-shit, serious contender to take down the Warriors.

And Brown's salary is attractive now, but he'll be a restricted free agent after next season. That decision is coming soon. They could give Brown the likely $20M+ annually that he'll command and hope he'll be better than Butler down the road or they could flip him before he gets a payday and get an in-his-prime talent and make a real run at a championship. The latter seems like something Ainge would do.

PS: My proposal of Butler, Gibson, and a first-round pick for Hayward and Brown is a pretty good deal for the Wolves all things considered.

Well said, Cam. I'm a bit amused that people actually believe Danny Ainge, with his track record, wouldn't trade Hayward because of some perceived credibility issue. There is no credibility issue. Hayward's agent got his client a very, very lucrative contract. Hayward got paid last season under that contract and the contract will travel with Hayward as part of any trade. Agents understand that the promise is the contract, not an agreement never to trade their client absent a no-trade clause. Note that the contract negotiated with the Celtics did NOT contain a no-trade clause. Hmm. Agents and players know full well that, unless you're LeBron James, you're subject to being traded every year of your career in the NBA. If Ainge things it would help his team win, he'll trade Hayward to any team any time.

[Lipoli390]

To me the idea that we can get anything significant out of the Celtics for Butler beyond a straight Hayward swap seems optimistic. The Celtics adding Jalen Brown seems laughable to me and I'm surprised that smart posters here think that would even be considered. Butler is a better player than Hayward but Hayward fits what the Bulls want to do more and in a few months will lilely be less expensive than what they would have to pay for Butler. In addition they just signed Smart a guy that gives you a part of what you get with Butler to a contract that will pay him about a third of what Butler will probably get. I just don't see the reason why the Celtics deal for Butler.

How many times have we heard about various players wanting to play together and...it never happens. I gues Chris Paul and Melo might finally team up! Yessssssssss!!! It's not something to be dismissed that guys want to play together but it's also something that tends to be overreacted to IMHO.

I would agree it's unlikely we'd get Jaylen Brown in a deal for Butler. But I do think the Celtics would deal Hayward and their Kings' pick for Butler and Taj Gibson. The Celtics don't need that pick, so it's a matter of opportunity costs. But the Celtics aren't going to get Anthony David for that pick. In fact, the Celtics won't get Anthony Davis without gutting their young core. But it would seem a no-brainer to trade for Butler if all they have to give up is Hayward, a guy who didn't play at all last season, and a pick they don't need. It's all speculation and I think we all agree that this discussion is academic as long as Thibodeau is still calling the shots for the Wolves.

[thedoper]

I never loved Hayward before the injury, thought he would get tunnel vision and had poor speed. Now that his lift is going to be affected soon I'd be surprised if Ainge could get rid of his contract without a year of all-star level play which would be a miracle to me based on his injury. I don't doubt Ainge would try to trade him, but I don't think it would be easy.

[kekgeek]

To me the idea that we can get anything significant out of the Celtics for Butler beyond a straight Hayward swap seems optimistic. The Celtics adding Jalen Brown seems laughable to me and I'm surprised that smart posters here think that would even be considered. Butler is a better player than Hayward but Hayward fits what the Bulls want to do more and in a few months will lilely be less expensive than what they would have to pay for Butler. In addition they just signed Smart a guy that gives you a part of what you get with Butler to a contract that will pay him about a third of what Butler will probably get. I just don't see the reason why the Celtics deal for Butler.

How many times have we heard about various players wanting to play together and...it never happens. I gues Chris Paul and Melo might finally team up! Yessssssssss!!! It's not something to be dismissed that guys want to play together but it's also something that tends to be overreacted to IMHO.

I would agree it's unlikely we'd get Jaylen Brown in a deal for Butler. But I do think the Celtics would deal Hayward and their Kings' pick for Butler and Taj Gibson. The Celtics don't need that pick, so it's a matter of opportunity costs. But the Celtics aren't going to get Anthony David for that pick. In fact, the Celtics won't get Anthony Davis without gutting their young core. But it would seem a no-brainer to trade for Butler if all they have to give up is Hayward, a guy who didn't play at all last season, and a pick they don't need. It's all speculation and I think we all agree that this discussion is academic as long as Thibodeau is still calling the shots for the Wolves.

I don't think there is any shot in hell that the Celtics would do that trade. Just think of what could happen if everything went wrong. Kyrie, Butler, Taj and Al Horford could all leave in free agency. So all that work getting a great mix of young and old players is ruined in one offseason and they wouldn't even have one of their best assets in the Kings pick.

I know you said they can't get Anthony Davis but who knows, if the Pelicans don't make the playoffs this year. Davis could get very upset at the Pelicans and Davis value would never be higher because teams would be trading for 2 years of Davis. Also if Hayward comes anywhere close to his all star level, Hayward would be a great asset to get back for Davis. Something like Hayward, Kings pick, Mem pick and Rosier.

Just makes no sense for the Celtics to cash in for 1 season when everything can go bad in a year. They are set up to dominate the East for multiple years no reason to risk it on Butler.

[Monster]

To me the idea that we can get anything significant out of the Celtics for Butler beyond a straight Hayward swap seems optimistic. The Celtics adding Jalen Brown seems laughable to me and I'm surprised that smart posters here think that would even be considered. Butler is a better player than Hayward but Hayward fits what the Bulls want to do more and in a few months will lilely be less expensive than what they would have to pay for Butler. In addition they just signed Smart a guy that gives you a part of what you get with Butler to a contract that will pay him about a third of what Butler will probably get. I just don't see the reason why the Celtics deal for Butler.

How many times have we heard about various players wanting to play together and...it never happens. I gues Chris Paul and Melo might finally team up! Yessssssssss!!! It's not something to be dismissed that guys want to play together but it's also something that tends to be overreacted to IMHO.

I would agree it's unlikely we'd get Jaylen Brown in a deal for Butler. But I do think the Celtics would deal Hayward and their Kings' pick for Butler and Taj Gibson. The Celtics don't need that pick, so it's a matter of opportunity costs. But the Celtics aren't going to get Anthony David for that pick. In fact, the Celtics won't get Anthony Davis without gutting their young core. But it would seem a no-brainer to trade for Butler if all they have to give up is Hayward, a guy who didn't play at all last season, and a pick they don't need. It's all speculation and I think we all agree that this discussion is academic as long as Thibodeau is still calling the shots for the Wolves.

I don't think there is any shot in hell that the Celtics would do that trade. Just think of what could happen if everything went wrong. Kyrie, Butler, Taj and Al Horford could all leave in free agency. So all that work getting a great mix of young and old players is ruined in one offseason and they wouldn't even have one of their best assets in the Kings pick.

I know you said they can't get Anthony Davis but who knows, if the Pelicans don't make the playoffs this year. Davis could get very upset at the Pelicans and Davis value would never be higher because teams would be trading for 2 years of Davis. Also if Hayward comes anywhere close to his all star level, Hayward would be a great asset to get back for Davis. Something like Hayward, Kings pick, Mem pick and Rosier.

Just makes no sense for the Celtics to cash in for 1 season when everything can go bad in a year. They are set up to dominate the East for multiple years no reason to risk it on Butler.

Ainge has certainly not treated draft picks like he doesn't need any more of them so I don't know why he would start now. You never know what player would be available like AD and that pick (or player) wpuld lile y have a lot more value to that team.

Also google Gordon Hayward and watch the recent workout videos. He looks pretty good for a guy a few weeks removed from his latest surgery. It's weird how the Celtics supposedly didn't have great interest in dealing for Butler last summer but now they would make a move to get him. Thibs ain't dealing him and I don't think Ainge would prioritize going after him either. That's my informed opinion.

[crazy-canuck [enjin:18955461]]

Yeah, i dont think ainge wants butler. If he wanted him, he could of had him last year with 2 years left instead of one. Maybe the lockerroom room stuff is legit and scared him off taking the chance.

[Lipoli390]

To me the idea that we can get anything significant out of the Celtics for Butler beyond a straight Hayward swap seems optimistic. The Celtics adding Jalen Brown seems laughable to me and I'm surprised that smart posters here think that would even be considered. Butler is a better player than Hayward but Hayward fits what the Bulls want to do more and in a few months will lilely be less expensive than what they would have to pay for Butler. In addition they just signed Smart a guy that gives you a part of what you get with Butler to a contract that will pay him about a third of what Butler will probably get. I just don't see the reason why the Celtics deal for Butler.

How many times have we heard about various players wanting to play together and...it never happens. I gues Chris Paul and Melo might finally team up! Yessssssssss!!! It's not something to be dismissed that guys want to play together but it's also something that tends to be overreacted to IMHO.

I would agree it's unlikely we'd get Jaylen Brown in a deal for Butler. But I do think the Celtics would deal Hayward and their Kings' pick for Butler and Taj Gibson. The Celtics don't need that pick, so it's a matter of opportunity costs. But the Celtics aren't going to get Anthony David for that pick. In fact, the Celtics won't get Anthony Davis without gutting their young core. But it would seem a no-brainer to trade for Butler if all they have to give up is Hayward, a guy who didn't play at all last season, and a pick they don't need. It's all speculation and I think we all agree that this discussion is academic as long as Thibodeau is still calling the shots for the Wolves.

I don't think there is any shot in hell that the Celtics would do that trade. Just think of what could happen if everything went wrong. Kyrie, Butler, Taj and Al Horford could all leave in free agency. So all that work getting a great mix of young and old players is ruined in one offseason and they wouldn't even have one of their best assets in the Kings pick.

I know you said they can't get Anthony Davis but who knows, if the Pelicans don't make the playoffs this year. Davis could get very upset at the Pelicans and Davis value would never be higher because teams would be trading for 2 years of Davis. Also if Hayward comes anywhere close to his all star level, Hayward would be a great asset to get back for Davis. Something like Hayward, Kings pick, Mem pick and Rosier.

Just makes no sense for the Celtics to cash in for 1 season when everything can go bad in a year. They are set up to dominate the East for multiple years no reason to risk it on Butler.

Ainge has certainly not treated draft picks like he doesn't need any more of them so I don't know why he would start now. You never know what player would be available like AD and that pick (or player) wpuld lile y have a lot more value to that team.

Also google Gordon Hayward and watch the recent workout videos. He looks pretty good for a guy a few weeks removed from his latest surgery. It's weird how the Celtics supposedly didn't have great interest in dealing for Butler last summer but now they would make a move to get him. Thibs ain't dealing him and I don't think Ainge would prioritize going after him either. That's my informed opinion.

I just think that Ainge preferred signing Hayward as a FA over giving up assets to get Butler last summer. Ainge's thinking this summer may be similar, in which case you're right that he wouldn't do the deal I'm suggesting. Two things have changed since last season that could alter Ainge's thinking. One is Hayward's injury, which in spite of the recent workout videos, has to give him some pause about what Hayward will be going forward. The other is the acquisition of Kyrie Irving and the extent to which getting Butler would enhance Boston's chances of re-signing Kyrie. So I think Boston would be open to the idea. That's my semi-informed opinion. :).

However, it is interesting how Boston showed no interest in trading for Jimmy last summer after apparently showing interest at the February trade deadline before last summer. Perhaps there is something to crazy-canuck's thought that Boston became wary of Butler after their due diligence on his player interaction and physical issues. Butler appears to have a tendency to alienate some of his teammates -- something he's now done with two different teams.

[Lipoli390]

I never loved Hayward before the injury, thought he would get tunnel vision and had poor speed. Now that his lift is going to be affected soon I'd be surprised if Ainge could get rid of his contract without a year of all-star level play which would be a miracle to me based on his injury. I don't doubt Ainge would try to trade him, but I don't think it would be easy.

Good point, Doper. That gets back to my original question -- should the Wolves consider the trade I'm suggesting? There's a good argument that we should not.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Ainge wouldn't give up Brown for Kawhi so there is 0% chance that is on the table for Jimmy. Kawhi is a top 3 player. Jimmy is top 15. I know people want Jimmy gone, but he's the second best player this franchise has ever had and he is a legit player. We should be doing more to try to keep him here, not mail it in to send him out. Those are the kind of guys you build around, not ship out because he doesn't like his teammates who by the way are spoiled kids. I think right now people are just trying to feed drama to make news beacuse it's the dead period of the offseason and once we get on the court we will be fine. Winning helps a lot and we won a hell of a lot of games that Jimmy played in. Hopefully one more year under Thibs at least breeds continuity so we can play more like a team and less like 5 guys on a court together.

[Lipoli390]

Ainge wouldn't give up Brown for Kawhi so there is 0% chance that is on the table for Jimmy. Kawhi is a top 3 player. Jimmy is top 15. I know people want Jimmy gone, but he's the second best player this franchise has ever had and he is a legit player. We should be doing more to try to keep him here, not mail it in to send him out. Those are the kind of guys you build around, not ship out because he doesn't like his teammates who by the way are spoiled kids. I think right now people are just trying to feed drama to make news beacuse it's the dead period of the offseason and once we get on the court we will be fine. Winning helps a lot and we won a hell of a lot of games that Jimmy played in. Hopefully one more year under Thibs at least breeds continuity so we can play more like a team and less like 5 guys on a court together.

I agree with you that it's unlikely Ainge would give up Brown in a deal for Butler. Perhaps that says something about Butler. If he's a top 15 player, why wouldn't Ainge do that?

Jimmy might be the 2nd best player this franchise has had, but Towns is a very close 3rd at age 22. KAT doesn't strike me as a spoiled kid. Wiggins doesn't either. KAT has produced in a big way for 3 seasons, playing huge minutes in all 82 games each of those three seasons. Acquiring Butler gave the Wolves a second, more experienced allstar to go with the allstar Towns. That addition, plus the addition of Taj Gibson and improvement from KAT helped propel the Wolves to 47 wins.

So I'd love to keep Butler, but he'll be an unrestricted free agent next summer. I also believe the reports that he's unhappy with his teammates. Therefore, I think the odds are against him staying beyond this coming season. And I don't see anything the organization can do to reduce those odds of him leaving. If he's unhappy with KAT, then it would seem the only way you make Jimmy more likely to stay is to trade KAT and make the team better next season as a result of that trade. But there's no way I'd trade our most talented player since KG, especially given how productive KAT has been, to please the 67 games per year Butler knowing that he could still leave as a FA next summer. Yes, winning would help, but we can't count on doing well enough to keep him here knowing that he's already unhappy with the team.

I know that Thibodeau won't trade Buter. Therefore, I'm hoping that this team comes together and finishes in the top 4 in the West. If that happens we should have a pretty good shot at retaining Butler. I just don't have a high level of confidence that the Wolves will do that well. I hope I'm wrong.