Q12543 wrote:I'd give him a C. At the end of the day, he STILL doesn't have a legit backup wing that you feel confident can give us 20+ minutes of solid play off the bench or step into a starting role for a period of time in case Butler or Wiggins gets hurt. I just don't trust that Derrick Rose is the answer. And Josh Okogie certainly isn't the answer, at least not this season.
I think Tolliver was a good signing because it gives us a volume 3 shooter. Unfortunately, he's a backup PF. So our two best 3-point shooters on the roster is our starting Center and backup PF.....same as last year! We will likely be dead last again in 3PTA and 3PTM unless someone else on the roster suddenly turns into a volume sniper. Not gonna happen.....
Why is Okogie certainly not the answer? He doesn't have to run the second unit because you have Rose and Tyus. He gets to play off 2 PG's and hustle and play D. That's right in his wheelhouse with his skillset right now. He gets to play the role he is ready for right now and won't ever have to do more than he's capable of right now because the team is stacked with other guys who cover up his weaknesses of ball handling and playmaking. I would expect him to have an impact this year. He's in a great situation for impacting games while getting to limit mistakes.
I hear what you're saying, Kahns, but it seems like a second-unit that will really struggle to score. If Tolliver's out there, that unit would have only one proven NBA 3-point shooter.
It's the bench. It doesn't operate under the same rules of needing 4 out, etc. Most benches are just 1 maybe 2 guys doing all the playmaking and scoring off the dribble and it's PnR and Isolation basketball. Basic stuff. Rose and Tyus running the PnR. Okogie and Tolliver spotting up and cutting. Dieng setting the picks. In reality those 5 shouldn't be on the court at the same time given we have 4 potential 20 point scorers in Towns/Butler/Wiggins/Teague, but if they do they have the same offensive potency as most benches in the league IMO given we have 2 PG's that know how to run an offense directing that unit. At the end of the day they just need to not get blown out during their time on the court and our starting unit is better than most in the league to bring it home.
Nice analysis, Kahns. I can't disagree with you on what we need from our bench. But I just don't see Rose and Tolliver as a step up from Crawford and Belly, even if Rose stays healthy and that's a BIG if. So a lot hinges on the 19-year old rookie, Josh Okogie. If he produces like most 19-year old rookies, our bench in my view is no better than last season's bench.
Q12543 wrote:I'd give him a C. At the end of the day, he STILL doesn't have a legit backup wing that you feel confident can give us 20+ minutes of solid play off the bench or step into a starting role for a period of time in case Butler or Wiggins gets hurt. I just don't trust that Derrick Rose is the answer. And Josh Okogie certainly isn't the answer, at least not this season.
I think Tolliver was a good signing because it gives us a volume 3 shooter. Unfortunately, he's a backup PF. So our two best 3-point shooters on the roster is our starting Center and backup PF.....same as last year! We will likely be dead last again in 3PTA and 3PTM unless someone else on the roster suddenly turns into a volume sniper. Not gonna happen.....
Why is Okogie certainly not the answer? He doesn't have to run the second unit because you have Rose and Tyus. He gets to play off 2 PG's and hustle and play D. That's right in his wheelhouse with his skillset right now. He gets to play the role he is ready for right now and won't ever have to do more than he's capable of right now because the team is stacked with other guys who cover up his weaknesses of ball handling and playmaking. I would expect him to have an impact this year. He's in a great situation for impacting games while getting to limit mistakes.
I hear what you're saying, Kahns, but it seems like a second-unit that will really struggle to score. If Tolliver's out there, that unit would have only one proven NBA 3-point shooter.
It's the bench. It doesn't operate under the same rules of needing 4 out, etc. Most benches are just 1 maybe 2 guys doing all the playmaking and scoring off the dribble and it's PnR and Isolation basketball. Basic stuff. Rose and Tyus running the PnR. Okogie and Tolliver spotting up and cutting. Dieng setting the picks. In reality those 5 shouldn't be on the court at the same time given we have 4 potential 20 point scorers in Towns/Butler/Wiggins/Teague, but if they do they have the same offensive potency as most benches in the league IMO given we have 2 PG's that know how to run an offense directing that unit. At the end of the day they just need to not get blown out during their time on the court and our starting unit is better than most in the league to bring it home.
Nice analysis, Kahns. I can't disagree with you on what we need from our bench. But I just don't see Rose and Tolliver as a step up from Crawford and Belly, even if Rose stays healthy and that's a BIG if. So a lot hinges on the 19-year old rookie, Josh Okogie. If he produces like most 19-year old rookies, our bench in my view is no better than last season's bench.
People seem to forget Belly only played 67 games last year and when he did play he was inconsistent. And Jamal was very inconsistent and often hurt more than helped on the court. Rose/Crawford is a wash to me because they both run hot and cold and Tolliver gives us a consistent presence on the floor Tyus and Rose can play around which is an improvement over Belly's inconsistences and injuries.
This is Tyus' unit. He needs to be the one to step up in that 6th man role and get 10 points and 4-5 assists. The ball dominant Crawford is gone. The two man game with Tyus and Dieng should be the number 1 option and we saw offensively that worked with Zach and Dieng. Can Tyus do it? I don't know, but he needs to be the leader on that unit and direct things so we don't get blown out. I see no reason guys like Okogie, Tolliver and KBD can't stay in their lanes with this unit and be effective. It's usually when you are asked to do stuff outside your lane when you lose effectiveness.
Q12543 wrote:I'd give him a C. At the end of the day, he STILL doesn't have a legit backup wing that you feel confident can give us 20+ minutes of solid play off the bench or step into a starting role for a period of time in case Butler or Wiggins gets hurt. I just don't trust that Derrick Rose is the answer. And Josh Okogie certainly isn't the answer, at least not this season.
I think Tolliver was a good signing because it gives us a volume 3 shooter. Unfortunately, he's a backup PF. So our two best 3-point shooters on the roster is our starting Center and backup PF.....same as last year! We will likely be dead last again in 3PTA and 3PTM unless someone else on the roster suddenly turns into a volume sniper. Not gonna happen.....
Why is Okogie certainly not the answer? He doesn't have to run the second unit because you have Rose and Tyus. He gets to play off 2 PG's and hustle and play D. That's right in his wheelhouse with his skillset right now. He gets to play the role he is ready for right now and won't ever have to do more than he's capable of right now because the team is stacked with other guys who cover up his weaknesses of ball handling and playmaking. I would expect him to have an impact this year. He's in a great situation for impacting games while getting to limit mistakes.
I hear what you're saying, Kahns, but it seems like a second-unit that will really struggle to score. If Tolliver's out there, that unit would have only one proven NBA 3-point shooter.
It's the bench. It doesn't operate under the same rules of needing 4 out, etc. Most benches are just 1 maybe 2 guys doing all the playmaking and scoring off the dribble and it's PnR and Isolation basketball. Basic stuff. Rose and Tyus running the PnR. Okogie and Tolliver spotting up and cutting. Dieng setting the picks. In reality those 5 shouldn't be on the court at the same time given we have 4 potential 20 point scorers in Towns/Butler/Wiggins/Teague, but if they do they have the same offensive potency as most benches in the league IMO given we have 2 PG's that know how to run an offense directing that unit. At the end of the day they just need to not get blown out during their time on the court and our starting unit is better than most in the league to bring it home.
Nice analysis, Kahns. I can't disagree with you on what we need from our bench. But I just don't see Rose and Tolliver as a step up from Crawford and Belly, even if Rose stays healthy and that's a BIG if. So a lot hinges on the 19-year old rookie, Josh Okogie. If he produces like most 19-year old rookies, our bench in my view is no better than last season's bench.
People seem to forget Belly only played 67 games last year and when he did play he was inconsistent. And Jamal was very inconsistent and often hurt more than helped on the court. Rose/Crawford is a wash to me because they both run hot and cold and Tolliver gives us a consistent presence on the floor Tyus and Rose can play around which is an improvement over Belly's inconsistences and injuries.
This is Tyus' unit. He needs to be the one to step up in that 6th man role and get 10 points and 4-5 assists. The ball dominant Crawford is gone. The two man game with Tyus and Dieng should be the number 1 option and we saw offensively that worked with Zach and Dieng. Can Tyus do it? I don't know, but he needs to be the leader on that unit and direct things so we don't get blown out. I see no reason guys like Okogie, Tolliver and KBD can't stay in their lanes with this unit and be effective. It's usually when you are asked to do stuff outside your lane when you lose effectiveness.
Good point about Tyus, Kahns. I was really impressed with Tyus last season and joined Jeff Teague in criticizing Thibodeau for not giving Tyus more minutes. I think Tyus can be a starting caliber PG, so if he continues his pattern of improvement, his play next season (without Jamaal's ball-hogging) could signicantly improve the second unit.
I would give the Wolves a B. I liked there draft and they added a need in 3pt shooting in Tolliver, they also didn't have the assets to do anything that would be franchise altering.
Now some of the reasons why they don't have the assets is we need to look back at the 2017 offseason and grade that offseason with 1 season of hindsight.
Butler and #16 for Dunn/Lavine and #7: A I know people will disagree with this and that is fine. I still think we are in a better place with Butler now who can still be traded and is a top 15ish player in the NBA. If we would not of made that trade we would be looking at a damn weird situation with a bottom 1/3rd starting PG in Dunn with attitude problems. 20 million a year to Lavine for a player that has not proved one once that he can be a contributor on a good team and his value could go down year after year like Wiggins (still a small % that Lavine hits his potential). Markannan was a lot better than I expected his rookie year, would have been a force on offense but really worried about the Markannan Towns defensive front court for years. Still believe the cap relief of Butler walking this offseason would be better than having to lock up Lavine to the money he obtained.
Drafting Patton: D I Like Patton and I think he can be a good player, but foot injuries really hurt him and we still don't know if his natural talent will translate to the NBA yet. Hey in 2 years this Patton grade can turn out to be an A but right now to a lot of bad luck it gets a D from me.
Trading Rubio for a 1st: A I know people love Rubio and so do I, but I think he is a 3rd tier PG (along with Teague and others) and anytime you can obtain a pick for a 3rd tier starting player I think you have to do it. Still love Rubio though.
Signing Jeff Teague to a 3yr/19 a year deal with a player opt: B- I like Teague but he is such a rollercoaster to watch. I think he is a great teammate and when he plays good we have such a high ceiling. But when he plays bad it really hurts are team. We saw both the good and the bad in the playoffs with Teague. Also this grade can trade based on what he does with his player option. I know a lot of people would say he is dumb to walk away from 19 mil but a lot of teams have cap space next year so he might want to try and cash in again. Also if he does opt in, I would love to see what we do with the 19mil expiring contract of Teague. I would love us to flip him for a 1st like we did with Rubio and like the Hawks did with Schroder today.
Taj 2year/14 mil a year: A What can a say, I liked the signing last offseason but he outperformed even my expectations. He was the glue and our most consistent player. Worth every penny last year, also a shot deal. Great job here.
Gorgui 4yr/15-17mil a year: F Nothing really to say, at best he is a 3rd big on a team, if we would have waited to sign him he would probably gotten a 8 mil a year less contract. He regressed and now is a negative asset. Like Gorgui but this is one of the big killers on the team.
Wiggins Max contract: C- I am one of Wiggins supporters on this board but at this moment he is not a max player, this grade can move way up but if he doesn't improve by leaps and bounds this will be one of the contracts that keeps us back for massively improving. I understand Thibs thought process, if Wiggins doesn't have to be the #1 option on offense his scoring should of gotten more efficient, it didn't. He should rebound better because he doesn't carry the load anymore. His defense should improve not guarding the best player (I think it did but he is not all nba defense by any means). I am still fine with giving him the max deal because if Wiggins would have hit his potential we didn't want a Love or Hayward situation that he feels disrespected by the team that they didn't believe in him. But he hasn't hit his potential so it gets a bad grade right now.
Signing Crawford: F Every lineup he was in was one of the worst lineups in the NBA. Take him out of any lineup every bench player became a positive on the floor (Outside of Gorgui who was a super slight negative). Nice dude who helped us win a couple of games, but he had some of the worst on off numbers in recent NBA history. Happy he is gone and not surprising he doesn't have a team yet.
Signing Rose: A Shocking but he was a net positive on the team. What more can you ask for a midseason signing. Now this season we will see if it was small sample size or does thibs know how to use Rose (Guessing small sample size)
Signing Bazz: F He sucked, nothing more to say
Signing MGH: D+ he was worth the roster spot but he had little impact on the team and he is not back for this next year so one of Thibs young guys in the grand scheme of things was a miss.
Amile Jefferson 2-way: C+ Might become a role player for the team and that is what you want out of your 2-way guys. Only reason I gave it a C+ is no promises he can be a role player yet and low long term potential from Amile
Anthony Brown 2-way: F Swing and a miss from a 2 way contract, this is going to happen a lot across the league but a miss is a miss and gets an F.
So as you can see from my rankings, mixed bag but in my opinion the 2 things that kill us are the Gorgui long term contract and that the young guys Thibs brought in Patton, Jefferson, MGH, Brown to this point are zeros. In my opinion how to keep relevant is to be able to add young cheap talent that can play roles on a team and to this point Thibs did not do that last year. All 4 of those players don't look like they will be in the rotation this year and that is a killer to keep success going for the Wolves.
Rose was not a net positive last year for the Wolves, though he did play with solid energy and he had a couple nice games in the post-season. Wiggins' contract, along with Dieng's, are the two most crippling aspects of this team and it's future.
2014 draft, 2nd contracts for top 10 picks
1. Wiggins: $146.5M, 5 yrs
2. Parker: $40M, 2 yrs, team opt yr 2
3. Embiid: $148M, 5 yrs
4. Gordon: $84M, 4 yrs
5. Exum: $33M, 3 yrs
6. Smart: $52M, 4 yrs
7. Randle: $18M, 2 yrs
8. Stauskas: $1.6M, 1 yr
9. Vonleh:
10. Payton: $2.7M, 1 yr
Wiggins is only better than three of these players and yet he's a max player. That deal is abysmal.
Camden wrote:Rose was not a net positive last year for the Wolves, though he did play with solid energy and he had a couple nice games in the post-season. Wiggins' contract, along with Dieng's, are the two most crippling aspects of this team and it's future.
2014 draft, 2nd contracts for top 10 picks
1. Wiggins: $146.5M, 5 yrs
2. Parker: $40M, 2 yrs, team opt yr 2
3. Embiid: $148M, 5 yrs
4. Gordon: $84M, 4 yrs
5. Exum: $33M, 3 yrs
6. Smart: $52M, 4 yrs
7. Randle: $18M, 2 yrs
8. Stauskas: $1.6M, 1 yr
9. Vonleh:
10. Payton: $2.7M, 1 yr
Wiggins is only better than three of these players and yet he's a max player. That deal is abysmal.
That is pretty bad, Cam. A big part of a good organization is knowing when to move on and executing. Unfortunately, the window has closed on getting a decent return for Wiggins. So now the Wolves need to turn their attention to moving on from Butler. There are too many signs that Butler is unhappy and poised to move on after this season. There is also too much discord between Butler and KAT. The window to a good return for Butler was wide open draft night. It's still open, but it won't remain open past this summer.
Camden wrote:Rose was not a net positive last year for the Wolves, though he did play with solid energy and he had a couple nice games in the post-season. Wiggins' contract, along with Dieng's, are the two most crippling aspects of this team and it's future.
2014 draft, 2nd contracts for top 10 picks
1. Wiggins: $146.5M, 5 yrs
2. Parker: $40M, 2 yrs, team opt yr 2
3. Embiid: $148M, 5 yrs
4. Gordon: $84M, 4 yrs
5. Exum: $33M, 3 yrs
6. Smart: $52M, 4 yrs
7. Randle: $18M, 2 yrs
8. Stauskas: $1.6M, 1 yr
9. Vonleh:
10. Payton: $2.7M, 1 yr
Wiggins is only better than three of these players and yet he's a max player. That deal is abysmal.
He's only better than three of those players? You're hilarious. And getting less credible every day.
Camden wrote:Rose was not a net positive last year for the Wolves, though he did play with solid energy and he had a couple nice games in the post-season. Wiggins' contract, along with Dieng's, are the two most crippling aspects of this team and it's future.
2014 draft, 2nd contracts for top 10 picks
1. Wiggins: $146.5M, 5 yrs
2. Parker: $40M, 2 yrs, team opt yr 2
3. Embiid: $148M, 5 yrs
4. Gordon: $84M, 4 yrs
5. Exum: $33M, 3 yrs
6. Smart: $52M, 4 yrs
7. Randle: $18M, 2 yrs
8. Stauskas: $1.6M, 1 yr
9. Vonleh:
10. Payton: $2.7M, 1 yr
Wiggins is only better than three of these players and yet he's a max player. That deal is abysmal.
He's only better than three of those players? You're hilarious. And getting less credible every day.
I would say only 1 is 100% better than Wiggins and that is Embiid. I would hear an argument Gordon vs Wiggins. The rest I would say Wiggins is better then. Even though I like smart and Randle, I would take Wiggins 100 times out of 100 times.
Camden wrote:Rose was not a net positive last year for the Wolves, though he did play with solid energy and he had a couple nice games in the post-season. Wiggins' contract, along with Dieng's, are the two most crippling aspects of this team and it's future.
2014 draft, 2nd contracts for top 10 picks
1. Wiggins: $146.5M, 5 yrs
2. Parker: $40M, 2 yrs, team opt yr 2
3. Embiid: $148M, 5 yrs
4. Gordon: $84M, 4 yrs
5. Exum: $33M, 3 yrs
6. Smart: $52M, 4 yrs
7. Randle: $18M, 2 yrs
8. Stauskas: $1.6M, 1 yr
9. Vonleh:
10. Payton: $2.7M, 1 yr
Wiggins is only better than three of these players and yet he's a max player. That deal is abysmal.
He's only better than three of those players? You're hilarious. And getting less credible every day.
I would say only 1 is 100% better than Wiggins and that is Embiid. I would hear an argument Gordon vs Wiggins. The rest I would say Wiggins is better then. Even though I like smart and Randle, I would take Wiggins 100 times out of 100 times.
Camden wrote:Rose was not a net positive last year for the Wolves, though he did play with solid energy and he had a couple nice games in the post-season. Wiggins' contract, along with Dieng's, are the two most crippling aspects of this team and it's future.
2014 draft, 2nd contracts for top 10 picks
1. Wiggins: $146.5M, 5 yrs
2. Parker: $40M, 2 yrs, team opt yr 2
3. Embiid: $148M, 5 yrs
4. Gordon: $84M, 4 yrs
5. Exum: $33M, 3 yrs
6. Smart: $52M, 4 yrs
7. Randle: $18M, 2 yrs
8. Stauskas: $1.6M, 1 yr
9. Vonleh:
10. Payton: $2.7M, 1 yr
Wiggins is only better than three of these players and yet he's a max player. That deal is abysmal.
He's only better than three of those players? You're hilarious. And getting less credible every day.
I forget that you get your feelings hurt whenever there's criticism of Andrew Wiggins. Instead of a counter argument you just point the finger and get emotional.
The truth of the matter is that Jabari Parker, Joel Embiid, Aaron Gordon, Dante Exum, Marcus Smart, and Julius Randle ALL have better VORP, BPM, WS/48, and PER (except for Smart) metrics than Wiggins. They're all impacting the game more than he is despite Wiggins being more talented and more physically gifted. Tell me why that is? He's a glorified role player getting paid the max, but he's not making a positive difference when he's in the game. The other six that I listed are. That's what happens when your best [only?] skill is scoring and you're inefficient at that.
