NY Post: Jimmy Butler’s Timberwolves frustration is now official

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Ainge wouldn't give up Brown for Kawhi so there is 0% chance that is on the table for Jimmy. Kawhi is a top 3 player. Jimmy is top 15. I know people want Jimmy gone, but he's the second best player this franchise has ever had and he is a legit player. We should be doing more to try to keep him here, not mail it in to send him out. Those are the kind of guys you build around, not ship out because he doesn't like his teammates who by the way are spoiled kids. I think right now people are just trying to feed drama to make news beacuse it's the dead period of the offseason and once we get on the court we will be fine. Winning helps a lot and we won a hell of a lot of games that Jimmy played in. Hopefully one more year under Thibs at least breeds continuity so we can play more like a team and less like 5 guys on a court together.

I agree with you that it's unlikely Ainge would give up Brown in a deal for Butler. Perhaps that says something about Butler. If he's a top 15 player, why wouldn't Ainge do that?

Jimmy might be the 2nd best player this franchise has had, but Towns is a very close 3rd at age 22. KAT doesn't strike me as a spoiled kid. Wiggins doesn't either. KAT has produced in a big way for 3 seasons, playing huge minutes in all 82 games each of those three seasons. Acquiring Butler gave the Wolves a second, more experienced allstar to go with the allstar Towns. That addition, plus the addition of Taj Gibson and improvement from KAT helped propel the Wolves to 47 wins.

So I'd love to keep Butler, but he'll be an unrestricted free agent next summer. I also believe the reports that he's unhappy with his teammates. Therefore, I think the odds are against him staying beyond this coming season. And I don't see anything the organization can do to reduce those odds of him leaving. If he's unhappy with KAT, then it would seem the only way you make Jimmy more likely to stay is to trade KAT and make the team better next season as a result of that trade. But there's no way I'd trade our most talented player since KG, especially given how productive KAT has been, to please the 67 games per year Butler knowing that he could still leave as a FA next summer. Yes, winning would help, but we can't count on doing well enough to keep him here knowing that he's already unhappy with the team.

I know that Thibodeau won't trade Buter. Therefore, I'm hoping that this team comes together and finishes in the top 4 in the West. If that happens we should have a pretty good shot at retaining Butler. I just don't have a high level of confidence that the Wolves will do that well. I hope I'm wrong.

We had a 62% win percentage when Jimmy played and Towns has never had this team above .500. Sorry, but it's just not close. I know you like to count Towns stats, but he doesn't have near the same game to game impact Jimmy does. There's more to basketball than points and rebounds and blocks and Towns hasn't figured that out yet. Not saying he won't, but he's not particularly close to Jimmy right now from an impact standpoint. There's a reason Towns was a no-show in the playoffs. He wasn't getting his points that make him look like an All-Star. That's when a truly impactful player still finds a way to impact a game in other ways.

And yes Towns is spoiled. Read the latest article on A Wolf Among Wolves about this schism between Jimmy and the players and there is some pretty damning evidence of Towns thinking he knows how to play basketball and doesn't take real coaching well because he doesn't think he needs it. Towns wants happy go lucky Flip who would praise him at every turn over a guy like Thibs whose gonna call him out when you don't play winning basketball. Tell me how that's not a spoiled kid who can't actually take real coaching because of his ego?

[Lipoli390]

Ainge wouldn't give up Brown for Kawhi so there is 0% chance that is on the table for Jimmy. Kawhi is a top 3 player. Jimmy is top 15. I know people want Jimmy gone, but he's the second best player this franchise has ever had and he is a legit player. We should be doing more to try to keep him here, not mail it in to send him out. Those are the kind of guys you build around, not ship out because he doesn't like his teammates who by the way are spoiled kids. I think right now people are just trying to feed drama to make news beacuse it's the dead period of the offseason and once we get on the court we will be fine. Winning helps a lot and we won a hell of a lot of games that Jimmy played in. Hopefully one more year under Thibs at least breeds continuity so we can play more like a team and less like 5 guys on a court together.

I agree with you that it's unlikely Ainge would give up Brown in a deal for Butler. Perhaps that says something about Butler. If he's a top 15 player, why wouldn't Ainge do that?

Jimmy might be the 2nd best player this franchise has had, but Towns is a very close 3rd at age 22. KAT doesn't strike me as a spoiled kid. Wiggins doesn't either. KAT has produced in a big way for 3 seasons, playing huge minutes in all 82 games each of those three seasons. Acquiring Butler gave the Wolves a second, more experienced allstar to go with the allstar Towns. That addition, plus the addition of Taj Gibson and improvement from KAT helped propel the Wolves to 47 wins.

So I'd love to keep Butler, but he'll be an unrestricted free agent next summer. I also believe the reports that he's unhappy with his teammates. Therefore, I think the odds are against him staying beyond this coming season. And I don't see anything the organization can do to reduce those odds of him leaving. If he's unhappy with KAT, then it would seem the only way you make Jimmy more likely to stay is to trade KAT and make the team better next season as a result of that trade. But there's no way I'd trade our most talented player since KG, especially given how productive KAT has been, to please the 67 games per year Butler knowing that he could still leave as a FA next summer. Yes, winning would help, but we can't count on doing well enough to keep him here knowing that he's already unhappy with the team.

I know that Thibodeau won't trade Buter. Therefore, I'm hoping that this team comes together and finishes in the top 4 in the West. If that happens we should have a pretty good shot at retaining Butler. I just don't have a high level of confidence that the Wolves will do that well. I hope I'm wrong.

We had a 62% win percentage when Jimmy played and Towns has never had this team above .500. Sorry, but it's just not close. I know you like to count Towns stats, but he doesn't have near the same game to game impact Jimmy does. There's more to basketball than points and rebounds and blocks and Towns hasn't figured that out yet. Not saying he won't, but he's not particularly close to Jimmy right now from an impact standpoint. There's a reason Towns was a no-show in the playoffs. He wasn't getting his points that make him look like an All-Star. That's when a truly impactful player still finds a way to impact a game in other ways.

And yes Towns is spoiled. Read the latest article on A Wolf Among Wolves about this schism between Jimmy and the players and there is some pretty damning evidence of Towns thinking he knows how to play basketball and doesn't take real coaching well because he doesn't think he needs it. Towns wants happy go lucky Flip who would praise him at every turn over a guy like Thibs whose gonna call him out when you don't play winning basketball. Tell me how that's not a spoiled kid who can't actually take real coaching because of his ego?

I'll have to read that article you're referring to. Post a link if you can. I agree that Butler is the better player, but I just think KAT is a closer third than you do. But note that KAT averages 15 more games per season than Butler. Last season, KAT played in 23 more games. Yes, KAT never had this team above .500, but he never had Butler playing with him. It would be interesting to see what this team's record would have been if Butler played for the Wolves minus Towns and Gibson. Getting 20+ points and 12+ rebounds nearly every game from a player for 82 games can't help but have a huge positive impact on the team. KAT looked bad in the playoffs because he played poorly. He's one of those players, including some great players like James Harden, who have to score to look good - although KAT can also make a big positive contribution by rebounding.

[Lipoli390]

Ainge wouldn't give up Brown for Kawhi so there is 0% chance that is on the table for Jimmy. Kawhi is a top 3 player. Jimmy is top 15. I know people want Jimmy gone, but he's the second best player this franchise has ever had and he is a legit player. We should be doing more to try to keep him here, not mail it in to send him out. Those are the kind of guys you build around, not ship out because he doesn't like his teammates who by the way are spoiled kids. I think right now people are just trying to feed drama to make news beacuse it's the dead period of the offseason and once we get on the court we will be fine. Winning helps a lot and we won a hell of a lot of games that Jimmy played in. Hopefully one more year under Thibs at least breeds continuity so we can play more like a team and less like 5 guys on a court together.

I agree with you that it's unlikely Ainge would give up Brown in a deal for Butler. Perhaps that says something about Butler. If he's a top 15 player, why wouldn't Ainge do that?

Jimmy might be the 2nd best player this franchise has had, but Towns is a very close 3rd at age 22. KAT doesn't strike me as a spoiled kid. Wiggins doesn't either. KAT has produced in a big way for 3 seasons, playing huge minutes in all 82 games each of those three seasons. Acquiring Butler gave the Wolves a second, more experienced allstar to go with the allstar Towns. That addition, plus the addition of Taj Gibson and improvement from KAT helped propel the Wolves to 47 wins.

So I'd love to keep Butler, but he'll be an unrestricted free agent next summer. I also believe the reports that he's unhappy with his teammates. Therefore, I think the odds are against him staying beyond this coming season. And I don't see anything the organization can do to reduce those odds of him leaving. If he's unhappy with KAT, then it would seem the only way you make Jimmy more likely to stay is to trade KAT and make the team better next season as a result of that trade. But there's no way I'd trade our most talented player since KG, especially given how productive KAT has been, to please the 67 games per year Butler knowing that he could still leave as a FA next summer. Yes, winning would help, but we can't count on doing well enough to keep him here knowing that he's already unhappy with the team.

I know that Thibodeau won't trade Buter. Therefore, I'm hoping that this team comes together and finishes in the top 4 in the West. If that happens we should have a pretty good shot at retaining Butler. I just don't have a high level of confidence that the Wolves will do that well. I hope I'm wrong.

We had a 62% win percentage when Jimmy played and Towns has never had this team above .500. Sorry, but it's just not close. I know you like to count Towns stats, but he doesn't have near the same game to game impact Jimmy does. There's more to basketball than points and rebounds and blocks and Towns hasn't figured that out yet. Not saying he won't, but he's not particularly close to Jimmy right now from an impact standpoint. There's a reason Towns was a no-show in the playoffs. He wasn't getting his points that make him look like an All-Star. That's when a truly impactful player still finds a way to impact a game in other ways.

And yes Towns is spoiled. Read the latest article on A Wolf Among Wolves about this schism between Jimmy and the players and there is some pretty damning evidence of Towns thinking he knows how to play basketball and doesn't take real coaching well because he doesn't think he needs it. Towns wants happy go lucky Flip who would praise him at every turn over a guy like Thibs whose gonna call him out when you don't play winning basketball. Tell me how that's not a spoiled kid who can't actually take real coaching because of his ego?

I just read the article. There's no "damning evidence" of anything. There is the author's speculation about what KAT meant when he said he needs to rely more on his instincts or more recently what KAT meant when he went out of his way to praise Flip. KAT's comments don't suggest he's "spoiled." They simply suggest that he doesn't care for Thibodeau. What a shock. Hell, I would think that the vast majority of players wouldn't like playing for Thibodeau. I know I wouldn't. Bravo for those who do. In any event, Thibodeau mentioned in his Summer League broadcast interview that KAT and Wiggins both took the next step last season. Thibodeau's words, not mine. Thibodeau then went on to praise his starting lineup and the fact that they ranked 5th on offense and 7th on defense. So Thibodeau himself apparently believes that KAT improved and I think he's right. KAT may not like playing for Thibodeau, in fact he probably doesn't, but KAT has nevertheless improved his game. Spoiled brats don't put in the work. You can't achieve what Towns has achieved without a lot of effort and hard work. In League of prima donnas, it seems silly to list conclude that KAT is spoiled or has an attitude problem. He needs to improve defensively. I think he will and if he does he'll go from allstar to star.

[Monster]

To me the idea that we can get anything significant out of the Celtics for Butler beyond a straight Hayward swap seems optimistic. The Celtics adding Jalen Brown seems laughable to me and I'm surprised that smart posters here think that would even be considered. Butler is a better player than Hayward but Hayward fits what the Bulls want to do more and in a few months will lilely be less expensive than what they would have to pay for Butler. In addition they just signed Smart a guy that gives you a part of what you get with Butler to a contract that will pay him about a third of what Butler will probably get. I just don't see the reason why the Celtics deal for Butler.

How many times have we heard about various players wanting to play together and...it never happens. I gues Chris Paul and Melo might finally team up! Yessssssssss!!! It's not something to be dismissed that guys want to play together but it's also something that tends to be overreacted to IMHO.

I would agree it's unlikely we'd get Jaylen Brown in a deal for Butler. But I do think the Celtics would deal Hayward and their Kings' pick for Butler and Taj Gibson. The Celtics don't need that pick, so it's a matter of opportunity costs. But the Celtics aren't going to get Anthony David for that pick. In fact, the Celtics won't get Anthony Davis without gutting their young core. But it would seem a no-brainer to trade for Butler if all they have to give up is Hayward, a guy who didn't play at all last season, and a pick they don't need. It's all speculation and I think we all agree that this discussion is academic as long as Thibodeau is still calling the shots for the Wolves.

I don't think there is any shot in hell that the Celtics would do that trade. Just think of what could happen if everything went wrong. Kyrie, Butler, Taj and Al Horford could all leave in free agency. So all that work getting a great mix of young and old players is ruined in one offseason and they wouldn't even have one of their best assets in the Kings pick.

I know you said they can't get Anthony Davis but who knows, if the Pelicans don't make the playoffs this year. Davis could get very upset at the Pelicans and Davis value would never be higher because teams would be trading for 2 years of Davis. Also if Hayward comes anywhere close to his all star level, Hayward would be a great asset to get back for Davis. Something like Hayward, Kings pick, Mem pick and Rosier.

Just makes no sense for the Celtics to cash in for 1 season when everything can go bad in a year. They are set up to dominate the East for multiple years no reason to risk it on Butler.

Ainge has certainly not treated draft picks like he doesn't need any more of them so I don't know why he would start now. You never know what player would be available like AD and that pick (or player) wpuld lile y have a lot more value to that team.

Also google Gordon Hayward and watch the recent workout videos. He looks pretty good for a guy a few weeks removed from his latest surgery. It's weird how the Celtics supposedly didn't have great interest in dealing for Butler last summer but now they would make a move to get him. Thibs ain't dealing him and I don't think Ainge would prioritize going after him either. That's my informed opinion.

I just think that Ainge preferred signing Hayward as a FA over giving up assets to get Butler last summer. Ainge's thinking this summer may be similar, in which case you're right that he wouldn't do the deal I'm suggesting. Two things have changed since last season that could alter Ainge's thinking. One is Hayward's injury, which in spite of the recent workout videos, has to give him some pause about what Hayward will be going forward. The other is the acquisition of Kyrie Irving and the extent to which getting Butler would enhance Boston's chances of re-signing Kyrie. So I think Boston would be open to the idea. That's my semi-informed opinion. :).

However, it is interesting how Boston showed no interest in trading for Jimmy last summer after apparently showing interest at the February trade deadline before last summer. Perhaps there is something to crazy-canuck's thought that Boston became wary of Butler after their due diligence on his player interaction and physical issues. Butler appears to have a tendency to alienate some of his teammates -- something he's now done with two different teams.

I think we can agree that in one sense or another Butler and Hayward are injury concerns going forward. I'm not saying it's even but it's a legit concern for both.

Acquiring Butler to help keep Kyrie is an angle you hadn't brought up previously.

I'll also add that I think of Hayward as a very good shooter espcially from 3 but the stats don't really back that up. He has been up and down throughout his career which is one of the reasons people probably said he wasn't worth the big money he got. Also worth noting is he is signed for this season, next and then has a 34 million player option. If he can't stay healthy dealing him even for an expiring Butler could he a great deal for them so they could sign other guys.

To me the key for the Celtics is how good these young guys that started either in the playoffs or the regular season. It's gonna be fun to watch that team grow.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Ainge wouldn't give up Brown for Kawhi so there is 0% chance that is on the table for Jimmy. Kawhi is a top 3 player. Jimmy is top 15. I know people want Jimmy gone, but he's the second best player this franchise has ever had and he is a legit player. We should be doing more to try to keep him here, not mail it in to send him out. Those are the kind of guys you build around, not ship out because he doesn't like his teammates who by the way are spoiled kids. I think right now people are just trying to feed drama to make news beacuse it's the dead period of the offseason and once we get on the court we will be fine. Winning helps a lot and we won a hell of a lot of games that Jimmy played in. Hopefully one more year under Thibs at least breeds continuity so we can play more like a team and less like 5 guys on a court together.

I agree with you that it's unlikely Ainge would give up Brown in a deal for Butler. Perhaps that says something about Butler. If he's a top 15 player, why wouldn't Ainge do that?

Jimmy might be the 2nd best player this franchise has had, but Towns is a very close 3rd at age 22. KAT doesn't strike me as a spoiled kid. Wiggins doesn't either. KAT has produced in a big way for 3 seasons, playing huge minutes in all 82 games each of those three seasons. Acquiring Butler gave the Wolves a second, more experienced allstar to go with the allstar Towns. That addition, plus the addition of Taj Gibson and improvement from KAT helped propel the Wolves to 47 wins.

So I'd love to keep Butler, but he'll be an unrestricted free agent next summer. I also believe the reports that he's unhappy with his teammates. Therefore, I think the odds are against him staying beyond this coming season. And I don't see anything the organization can do to reduce those odds of him leaving. If he's unhappy with KAT, then it would seem the only way you make Jimmy more likely to stay is to trade KAT and make the team better next season as a result of that trade. But there's no way I'd trade our most talented player since KG, especially given how productive KAT has been, to please the 67 games per year Butler knowing that he could still leave as a FA next summer. Yes, winning would help, but we can't count on doing well enough to keep him here knowing that he's already unhappy with the team.

I know that Thibodeau won't trade Buter. Therefore, I'm hoping that this team comes together and finishes in the top 4 in the West. If that happens we should have a pretty good shot at retaining Butler. I just don't have a high level of confidence that the Wolves will do that well. I hope I'm wrong.

We had a 62% win percentage when Jimmy played and Towns has never had this team above .500. Sorry, but it's just not close. I know you like to count Towns stats, but he doesn't have near the same game to game impact Jimmy does. There's more to basketball than points and rebounds and blocks and Towns hasn't figured that out yet. Not saying he won't, but he's not particularly close to Jimmy right now from an impact standpoint. There's a reason Towns was a no-show in the playoffs. He wasn't getting his points that make him look like an All-Star. That's when a truly impactful player still finds a way to impact a game in other ways.

And yes Towns is spoiled. Read the latest article on A Wolf Among Wolves about this schism between Jimmy and the players and there is some pretty damning evidence of Towns thinking he knows how to play basketball and doesn't take real coaching well because he doesn't think he needs it. Towns wants happy go lucky Flip who would praise him at every turn over a guy like Thibs whose gonna call him out when you don't play winning basketball. Tell me how that's not a spoiled kid who can't actually take real coaching because of his ego?

I just read the article. There's no "damning evidence" of anything. There is the author's speculation about what KAT meant when he said he needs to rely more on his instincts or more recently what KAT meant when he went out of his way to praise Flip. KAT's comments don't suggest he's "spoiled." They simply suggest that he doesn't care for Thibodeau. What a shock. Hell, I would think that the vast majority of players wouldn't like playing for Thibodeau. I know I wouldn't. Bravo for those who do. In any event, Thibodeau mentioned in his Summer League broadcast interview that KAT and Wiggins both took the next step last season. Thibodeau's words, not mine. Thibodeau then went on to praise his starting lineup and the fact that they ranked 5th on offense and 7th on defense. So Thibodeau himself apparently believes that KAT improved and I think he's right. KAT may not like playing for Thibodeau, in fact he probably doesn't, but KAT has nevertheless improved his game. Spoiled brats don't put in the work. You can't achieve what Towns has achieved without a lot of effort and hard work. In League of prima donnas, it seems silly to list conclude that KAT is spoiled or has an attitude problem. He needs to improve defensively. I think he will and if he does he'll go from allstar to star.

How is there nothing damning about saying I need to focus more on what I did in college than what these professionals have taught me in the league since I got here? Oh and by the way his way has been absolute trash since/one of the worst defensive centers in the league since he got here. That's a guy who's in his own world. I'm sorry you can't see it, but Towns is sort of off on his own doing his thing and not really taking to real coaching or criticism from guys who have proven they know what the hell they are doing. And he's not good enough to do that. If he was I wouldn't be saying any of this but if Jimmy leaves this summer I have a feeling we're going to be in a world of hurt defensively again if KAT isn't going to soak in anything Thibs teaches defensively. And yes I would rather have Jimmy play the 82 than Towns because points and rebounds are replaceable. Jimmy's defensive impact and overall impact just aren't and that's why we saw such a big dip when he was out.

[Lipoli390]

Ainge wouldn't give up Brown for Kawhi so there is 0% chance that is on the table for Jimmy. Kawhi is a top 3 player. Jimmy is top 15. I know people want Jimmy gone, but he's the second best player this franchise has ever had and he is a legit player. We should be doing more to try to keep him here, not mail it in to send him out. Those are the kind of guys you build around, not ship out because he doesn't like his teammates who by the way are spoiled kids. I think right now people are just trying to feed drama to make news beacuse it's the dead period of the offseason and once we get on the court we will be fine. Winning helps a lot and we won a hell of a lot of games that Jimmy played in. Hopefully one more year under Thibs at least breeds continuity so we can play more like a team and less like 5 guys on a court together.

I agree with you that it's unlikely Ainge would give up Brown in a deal for Butler. Perhaps that says something about Butler. If he's a top 15 player, why wouldn't Ainge do that?

Jimmy might be the 2nd best player this franchise has had, but Towns is a very close 3rd at age 22. KAT doesn't strike me as a spoiled kid. Wiggins doesn't either. KAT has produced in a big way for 3 seasons, playing huge minutes in all 82 games each of those three seasons. Acquiring Butler gave the Wolves a second, more experienced allstar to go with the allstar Towns. That addition, plus the addition of Taj Gibson and improvement from KAT helped propel the Wolves to 47 wins.

So I'd love to keep Butler, but he'll be an unrestricted free agent next summer. I also believe the reports that he's unhappy with his teammates. Therefore, I think the odds are against him staying beyond this coming season. And I don't see anything the organization can do to reduce those odds of him leaving. If he's unhappy with KAT, then it would seem the only way you make Jimmy more likely to stay is to trade KAT and make the team better next season as a result of that trade. But there's no way I'd trade our most talented player since KG, especially given how productive KAT has been, to please the 67 games per year Butler knowing that he could still leave as a FA next summer. Yes, winning would help, but we can't count on doing well enough to keep him here knowing that he's already unhappy with the team.

I know that Thibodeau won't trade Buter. Therefore, I'm hoping that this team comes together and finishes in the top 4 in the West. If that happens we should have a pretty good shot at retaining Butler. I just don't have a high level of confidence that the Wolves will do that well. I hope I'm wrong.

We had a 62% win percentage when Jimmy played and Towns has never had this team above .500. Sorry, but it's just not close. I know you like to count Towns stats, but he doesn't have near the same game to game impact Jimmy does. There's more to basketball than points and rebounds and blocks and Towns hasn't figured that out yet. Not saying he won't, but he's not particularly close to Jimmy right now from an impact standpoint. There's a reason Towns was a no-show in the playoffs. He wasn't getting his points that make him look like an All-Star. That's when a truly impactful player still finds a way to impact a game in other ways.

And yes Towns is spoiled. Read the latest article on A Wolf Among Wolves about this schism between Jimmy and the players and there is some pretty damning evidence of Towns thinking he knows how to play basketball and doesn't take real coaching well because he doesn't think he needs it. Towns wants happy go lucky Flip who would praise him at every turn over a guy like Thibs whose gonna call him out when you don't play winning basketball. Tell me how that's not a spoiled kid who can't actually take real coaching because of his ego?

I just read the article. There's no "damning evidence" of anything. There is the author's speculation about what KAT meant when he said he needs to rely more on his instincts or more recently what KAT meant when he went out of his way to praise Flip. KAT's comments don't suggest he's "spoiled." They simply suggest that he doesn't care for Thibodeau. What a shock. Hell, I would think that the vast majority of players wouldn't like playing for Thibodeau. I know I wouldn't. Bravo for those who do. In any event, Thibodeau mentioned in his Summer League broadcast interview that KAT and Wiggins both took the next step last season. Thibodeau's words, not mine. Thibodeau then went on to praise his starting lineup and the fact that they ranked 5th on offense and 7th on defense. So Thibodeau himself apparently believes that KAT improved and I think he's right. KAT may not like playing for Thibodeau, in fact he probably doesn't, but KAT has nevertheless improved his game. Spoiled brats don't put in the work. You can't achieve what Towns has achieved without a lot of effort and hard work. In League of prima donnas, it seems silly to list conclude that KAT is spoiled or has an attitude problem. He needs to improve defensively. I think he will and if he does he'll go from allstar to star.

How is there nothing damning about saying I need to focus more on what I did in college than what these professionals have taught me in the league since I got here? Oh and by the way his way has been absolute trash since/one of the worst defensive centers in the league since he got here. That's a guy who's in his own world. I'm sorry you can't see it, but Towns is sort of off on his own doing his thing and not really taking to real coaching or criticism from guys who have proven they know what the hell they are doing. And he's not good enough to do that. If he was I wouldn't be saying any of this but if Jimmy leaves this summer I have a feeling we're going to be in a world of hurt defensively again if KAT isn't going to soak in anything Thibs teaches defensively. And yes I would rather have Jimmy play the 82 than Towns because points and rebounds are replaceable. Jimmy's defensive impact and overall impact just aren't and that's why we saw such a big dip when he was out.

I get that you'd rather have Jimmy play the 82 games rather than Town. But the fact is that Towns does play 82 games every season while Butler does not.

As for what Towns actually said at that May 2017 media day event, the author of that article doesn't tell us. The article's author, not Towns, said the following: "KAT showed up ready to talk about INSTINCTS. Done were the days of thinking too much. Instead he was going to play like he did at Kentucky, relying on his own instincts." That was the author's take on what Towns said, but even the author doesn't say that he's not going to listen to what the professionals have taught him. I'd want to see the full text of what Towns actually said to opine on what he meant. There's no evidence that Towns doesn't listing to Butler, Gibson, other vets or the head coach. The author's spin isn't evidence and even his spin doesn't go that far.

In any event, maybe KAT does need to play more instinctively. A big part of his defensive shortcomings by my observations are what appear to be slow reactions. Actually, I'd like to see more instinctive play from all our players who appear to be thinking too much and constantly listening for instructions from our bellowing head coach. As for KAT "soaking in" what Thibodeau is teaching defensively, I wonder who is soaking it in. Is Teague soaking it in? Last season was one of his worst defensively. How about Wiggins? How about Gorgui Dieng and Jamaal Crawford who ranked in the bottom third defensively of the 540 ranked NBA players? Even our defensive stalwart, Taj Gibson, ranked 106th defensively with a .031 defensive WS and a 107.1 DEFRTG. Those numbers were essentially identical to the KAT's numbers (.030 WS and 107.7 DEFRTG).

As for replacing KAT's scoring and rebounding, how many players last season or in NBA history have averaged 20+ points, 12+ rebounds, and 1.4+ blocked shots per season? Among those, how many have hit over 38%+ of their 3-point shots taking at least 3 per game? Oh and how many did all that before their 23rd birthday? Oh, and how many averaged 82 games and 32+ minutes per game for each of their 1st three seasons in the League?

KAT definitely needs to improve defensively, but he's not one of the worst defensive centers in the League. KAT ranked 113th last season by defensive WS. Here's a list of NBA centers who ranked below him in defensive WS last season (along with their ranking): Vucevic (118), Olynyk (134), Millsap (140), Jokic (164), Marc Gasol (171), Robin Lopez (185), Valanciunas (193), Dedmon (217), DeAndre Jordan(219), Cauley-Stein (242), Brook Lopez (247), Labissiere (340), Kaminsky (366), Kevin Love (390), Alex Len (396), Tyson Chandler (410), Greg Monroe (416), and Tristan Thompson (446). And as I noted above, Taj Gibson, reputed to be a great defender, ranked only slightly ahead of Towns. So yes, Towns isn't one of the better defenders among NBA centers, but he's also not among the worst.

When you factor in Towns offensive production and look at his net advanced stats, Towns is among the better NBA centers. He ranked 75th on net RTG last season. Is that good enough? No, it's not. He needs to improve defensively. You'll get no argument from me on that. But suggesting that he's a spoiled brat and one of the worst defensive centers in the League just doesn't hold up. And suggesting that his offensive output can be replaced is silly.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

The Jazz lost their two top scorers going into last year and managed to actually increase their scoring output 4 points per game. Scoring is the most replaceable stat in the league. If you swap Towns 25 for 12-15 from G, those other 10-13 are getting made up by Teague, Wiggins, Jimmy and others. Rebounding isn't as replaceable, but it also does not fluctuate greatly on a team level year to year. Towns puts up great stats for an individual player just like Love did for us as well. But those stats are not as impactful when it comes to wins and they were proven under Love to not be what drives up wins as well. He's gonna have to do the other things to truly be a franchise player and not just a guy who scores and rebounds a lot.

[worldK]

Ive enjoyed reading lip and khans back and fort here. Good points from both. Il give some of my own take..

1st butler was brought in to take us to the playoffs and show the young guys what it takes to win. He has done that. Best case scenario is for towns and wiggins to take a huge leap and we instantly became a legit contender. But that is not the case here. We will all agree that towns and wiggins will need a couple more years. Also, we are not beating golden state for the next few years. Our hope became after 3-4 years where the warriors core is aging and that team might be broken up.

There lies the conflict between butler and towns/wig. Butler is not going to wait. He is an alpha type. He wants to win while he is at his prime and his prime will be gone when towns and wig are at theirs. The time frame dont add up.

If your the wolves, who do you choose? If you go with butler, then i have no doubt that the celtics will seriously consider to trade kyrie and horford to us for towns and teague. They will consider that more than trading jaylen brown or sacramento pick to us for butler. Then you can now compete with butler/irving/hirford core. Do you go for that? Can that core beat the warriors now? That gives you a win now team with a 3 uear window. Or do you stick with the 23 uear old towns and wiggins and build to compete 3-4 years from now?

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

Ive enjoyed reading lip and khans back and fort here. Good points from both. Il give some of my own take..

1st butler was brought in to take us to the playoffs and show the young guys what it takes to win. He has done that. Best case scenario is for towns and wiggins to take a huge leap and we instantly became a legit contender. But that is not the case here. We will all agree that towns and wiggins will need a couple more years. Also, we are not beating golden state for the next few years. Our hope became after 3-4 years where the warriors core is aging and that team might be broken up.

There lies the conflict between butler and towns/wig. Butler is not going to wait. He is an alpha type. He wants to win while he is at his prime and his prime will be gone when towns and wig are at theirs. The time frame dont add up.

If your the wolves, who do you choose? If you go with butler, then i have no doubt that the celtics will seriously consider to trade kyrie and horford to us for towns and teague. They will consider that more than trading jaylen brown or sacramento pick to us for butler. Then you can now compete with butler/irving/hirford core. Do you go for that? Can that core beat the warriors now? That gives you a win now team with a 3 uear window. Or do you stick with the 23 uear old towns and wiggins and build to compete 3-4 years from now?

You absolutely keep Towns between the 2. I just think he needs to look in the mirror a little bit and realize he needs to do the little things that win more games than just the typical counting stats for a big. If he doesn't then we are just back to an All-Star big without enough help because he has holes defensively that a franchise player can't have when you are talking about a Center who is supposed to anchor the defense.

[Lipoli390]

Ive enjoyed reading lip and khans back and fort here. Good points from both. Il give some of my own take..

1st butler was brought in to take us to the playoffs and show the young guys what it takes to win. He has done that. Best case scenario is for towns and wiggins to take a huge leap and we instantly became a legit contender. But that is not the case here. We will all agree that towns and wiggins will need a couple more years. Also, we are not beating golden state for the next few years. Our hope became after 3-4 years where the warriors core is aging and that team might be broken up.

There lies the conflict between butler and towns/wig. Butler is not going to wait. He is an alpha type. He wants to win while he is at his prime and his prime will be gone when towns and wig are at theirs. The time frame dont add up.

If your the wolves, who do you choose? If you go with butler, then i have no doubt that the celtics will seriously consider to trade kyrie and horford to us for towns and teague. They will consider that more than trading jaylen brown or sacramento pick to us for butler. Then you can now compete with butler/irving/hirford core. Do you go for that? Can that core beat the warriors now? That gives you a win now team with a 3 uear window. Or do you stick with the 23 uear old towns and wiggins and build to compete 3-4 years from now?

Well said, World. I think you've done a nice job of laying out the two paths -- a win now path that involves trading KAT and keeping Butler versus a longer-term path that would ianvolve trading Butler for more young talent or likely lottery picks. But there is a third path and that's keeping both Butler and Towns in the hope that they pull together and lead the Wolves to a top 4 finish in the West, in which case, there's a decent chance Butler re-signs. If Butler re-signs, then he can be part of a longer-term trajectory for the Wolves assuming he can stay healthy. I'd actually prefer keeping Butler if he had a couple more years left on his contract or hadn't given clear signs that he's inclined to leave next summer. So as I've indicated, I'd go with the trade Butler path. I would do so reluctantly, prompted by Butler's contract situation and his apparent attitude towards his key teammates.