NY Post: Jimmy Butler’s Timberwolves frustration is now official

[Lipoli390]

Ive enjoyed reading lip and khans back and fort here. Good points from both. Il give some of my own take..

1st butler was brought in to take us to the playoffs and show the young guys what it takes to win. He has done that. Best case scenario is for towns and wiggins to take a huge leap and we instantly became a legit contender. But that is not the case here. We will all agree that towns and wiggins will need a couple more years. Also, we are not beating golden state for the next few years. Our hope became after 3-4 years where the warriors core is aging and that team might be broken up.

There lies the conflict between butler and towns/wig. Butler is not going to wait. He is an alpha type. He wants to win while he is at his prime and his prime will be gone when towns and wig are at theirs. The time frame dont add up.

If your the wolves, who do you choose? If you go with butler, then i have no doubt that the celtics will seriously consider to trade kyrie and horford to us for towns and teague. They will consider that more than trading jaylen brown or sacramento pick to us for butler. Then you can now compete with butler/irving/hirford core. Do you go for that? Can that core beat the warriors now? That gives you a win now team with a 3 uear window. Or do you stick with the 23 uear old towns and wiggins and build to compete 3-4 years from now?

You absolutely keep Towns between the 2. I just think he needs to look in the mirror a little bit and realize he needs to do the little things that win more games than just the typical counting stats for a big. If he doesn't then we are just back to an All-Star big without enough help because he has holes defensively that a franchise player can't have when you are talking about a Center who is supposed to anchor the defense.

Kahns -- I think we're actually in agreement. Although I think you over-stated the issues with Towns a bit, I absolutely agree that he needs to look in the mirror and focus more on the little things that help the team. That's true whether we keep Butler or trade him.

By the way, fun discussion. I enjoyed it. You always provide a thoughtful, informed perspective on things regardless of whether I agree with you or not.

[Monster]

To me Towns can easily come off the wrong way partly because I think he tries so damn hard to do just that. IMO Towns, Wiggins and Butler actually all have a sort of blend of humility and ego. Butler is the guy that would show up to pretty much any event if asked (I saw that on Instagram he is going to MGH's kid's birthday party). Towns also seems interested in things outside of Basketball. Wiggins is a weird dude but I isn't dying to get in the spot light. Meanwhile you know all these guys have their idea of how they can be successful and the team can be as well. Thats normal. Jon K has reported fro months that the problem is that the most important pieces including these guys and Thibs aren't all on the same page. Jon has shared legit concerns that Thibs doesn't bring guys along with him while also saying Rubio probably needed too much involvement and in some ways is high maintenance. These things can take time to figure it all out. Lip and Kahns had a good back and forth about Towns. Jon says both Towns and Thibs need to give in a little and meet int he middle and both are stubborn in their way. Lots of coaches and players take some time to get it right. Jimmy needs to remember that while he worked his butt off to get where he was he didn't get it by the time these guys are their age now. I'm sure he see's their talent and wants them to get it NOW both selfishly and because I bet he does actually want those guys to succeed.

I don't see any of these players as complete problems they have their pluses and minuses as people and their approach. Wiggins is clearly the greatest mystery all the way around. That why I think this team just needs a player to really infuse the team with some positive energy. I think having someone that can play but also plays outside of the box would help things as well. I see Tolliver helping some in the first part. Okogie might help also. I don't know who the creative guy like Manu or Parker was for the Spurs but I think someone that can really force everyone to play in some improvisational ways would help.

I'd also guess that Thibs is also more of an actual human than he gets labeled as. I'm guessing he is learning as he goes doing all these difficult things some of them for the first time. Obviously he likes having control. He needs to let go of some of that and also be more open to innovating. Jon thinks Thibs is looking more towards doing some of that and its encouraging. Jon is the nicest dude but he has not held back in criticizing Thibs either the last 2 years. Some people do not think Thibs is capable of changing. I do. How much? idk regardless we are gonna have to wait and see. All of us want to see this team be better and I think it can. I don't think we have problems that cannot be worked out. This is why I think having a more fresh energetic voice like Jon Lucas III might help. All of us need some people with different strengths around us to get the best out of ourselves and whatever organizations we are apart of. People we don't talk about as much like assistants, various front office people, scouts and even sometimes who is at the end of the bench does matter.

[Lipoli390]

To me Towns can easily come off the wrong way partly because I think he tries so damn hard to do just that. IMO Towns, Wiggins and Butler actually all have a sort of blend of humility and ego. Butler is the guy that would show up to pretty much any event if asked (I saw that on Instagram he is going to MGH's kid's birthday party). Towns also seems interested in things outside of Basketball. Wiggins is a weird dude but I isn't dying to get in the spot light. Meanwhile you know all these guys have their idea of how they can be successful and the team can be as well. Thats normal. Jon K has reported fro months that the problem is that the most important pieces including these guys and Thibs aren't all on the same page. Jon has shared legit concerns that Thibs doesn't bring guys along with him while also saying Rubio probably needed too much involvement and in some ways is high maintenance. These things can take time to figure it all out. Lip and Kahns had a good back and forth about Towns. Jon says both Towns and Thibs need to give in a little and meet int he middle and both are stubborn in their way. Lots of coaches and players take some time to get it right. Jimmy needs to remember that while he worked his butt off to get where he was he didn't get it by the time these guys are their age now. I'm sure he see's their talent and wants them to get it NOW both selfishly and because I bet he does actually want those guys to succeed.

I don't see any of these players as complete problems they have their pluses and minuses as people and their approach. Wiggins is clearly the greatest mystery all the way around. That why I think this team just needs a player to really infuse the team with some positive energy. I think having someone that can play but also plays outside of the box would help things as well. I see Tolliver helping some in the first part. Okogie might help also. I don't know who the creative guy like Manu or Parker was for the Spurs but I think someone that can really force everyone to play in some improvisational ways would help.

I'd also guess that Thibs is also more of an actual human than he gets labeled as. I'm guessing he is learning as he goes doing all these difficult things some of them for the first time. Obviously he likes having control. He needs to let go of some of that and also be more open to innovating. Jon thinks Thibs is looking more towards doing some of that and its encouraging. Jon is the nicest dude but he has not held back in criticizing Thibs either the last 2 years. Some people do not think Thibs is capable of changing. I do. How much? idk regardless we are gonna have to wait and see. All of us want to see this team be better and I think it can. I don't think we have problems that cannot be worked out. This is why I think having a more fresh energetic voice like Jon Lucas III might help. All of us need some people with different strengths around us to get the best out of ourselves and whatever organizations we are apart of. People we don't talk about as much like assistants, various front office people, scouts and even sometimes who is at the end of the bench does matter.

Great post, Monster. I generally agree with all your points. But I still fall into the camp that doesn't see Thibs changing. Shortly after the Wolves hired Thibodeau I had a conversation with a basketball guy who has known Thibodeau personally for years. He likes Thibs and defended the hire in response to my expressed misgivings. But he also acknowledged that Thibodeau's characteristics could easily cause him to fail here. He said he talked with Thibodeau just after he was hired got the sense that getting fired had really humbled him and would probably lead him to understand that he'd have to change to be successful here. But after two years here, I don't see any evidence of significant change in Thibodeau's approach.

I think Thibodeau knows he needs to change, but when the moment arrives he just can't seem to do it. For example, ever since he got here, he's talked about the increased importance of the 3-point shot and the need to improve the team's 3-point shooting. Yet in his second season here, after bringing in the players he wanted and coaching the guys already here for over a year, the Wolves were dead last in 3-point attempts. He continues to micro-manage the offense possession by possession and he continues to underutilize his bench. And as Jon K has reported, he hasn't developed any personal connection to anyone in the organization, players or front office colleagues. Someone I know in the organization recently told me that Thibodeau is as controlling behind the scenes in practice and in the front office as he is in games. As I see it, Thibodeau is who he is or, in the words of or beloved Denny Green, he is who we thought he was. So even if he knows he needs to change, I just don't see that happening. If I'm right, this will be his last season with the Wolves and Butler will leave as a free agent next summer. If I'm wrong, there's a chance the Wolves finish in the top 3 or 4 and enter the conversation as a one of the few teams in the conversation to play the Warriors in the Western Conference finals. I hope I'm wrong.

[Monster]

To me Towns can easily come off the wrong way partly because I think he tries so damn hard to do just that. IMO Towns, Wiggins and Butler actually all have a sort of blend of humility and ego. Butler is the guy that would show up to pretty much any event if asked (I saw that on Instagram he is going to MGH's kid's birthday party). Towns also seems interested in things outside of Basketball. Wiggins is a weird dude but I isn't dying to get in the spot light. Meanwhile you know all these guys have their idea of how they can be successful and the team can be as well. Thats normal. Jon K has reported fro months that the problem is that the most important pieces including these guys and Thibs aren't all on the same page. Jon has shared legit concerns that Thibs doesn't bring guys along with him while also saying Rubio probably needed too much involvement and in some ways is high maintenance. These things can take time to figure it all out. Lip and Kahns had a good back and forth about Towns. Jon says both Towns and Thibs need to give in a little and meet int he middle and both are stubborn in their way. Lots of coaches and players take some time to get it right. Jimmy needs to remember that while he worked his butt off to get where he was he didn't get it by the time these guys are their age now. I'm sure he see's their talent and wants them to get it NOW both selfishly and because I bet he does actually want those guys to succeed.

I don't see any of these players as complete problems they have their pluses and minuses as people and their approach. Wiggins is clearly the greatest mystery all the way around. That why I think this team just needs a player to really infuse the team with some positive energy. I think having someone that can play but also plays outside of the box would help things as well. I see Tolliver helping some in the first part. Okogie might help also. I don't know who the creative guy like Manu or Parker was for the Spurs but I think someone that can really force everyone to play in some improvisational ways would help.

I'd also guess that Thibs is also more of an actual human than he gets labeled as. I'm guessing he is learning as he goes doing all these difficult things some of them for the first time. Obviously he likes having control. He needs to let go of some of that and also be more open to innovating. Jon thinks Thibs is looking more towards doing some of that and its encouraging. Jon is the nicest dude but he has not held back in criticizing Thibs either the last 2 years. Some people do not think Thibs is capable of changing. I do. How much? idk regardless we are gonna have to wait and see. All of us want to see this team be better and I think it can. I don't think we have problems that cannot be worked out. This is why I think having a more fresh energetic voice like Jon Lucas III might help. All of us need some people with different strengths around us to get the best out of ourselves and whatever organizations we are apart of. People we don't talk about as much like assistants, various front office people, scouts and even sometimes who is at the end of the bench does matter.

Great post, Monster. I generally agree with all your points. But I still fall into the camp that doesn't see Thibs changing. Shortly after the Wolves hired Thibodeau I had a conversation with a basketball guy who has known Thibodeau personally for years. He likes Thibs and defended the hire in response to my expressed misgivings. But he also acknowledged that Thibodeau's characteristics could easily cause him to fail here. He said he talked with Thibodeau just after he was hired got the sense that getting fired had really humbled him and would probably lead him to understand that he'd have to change to be successful here. But after two years here, I don't see any evidence of significant change in Thibodeau's approach.

I think Thibodeau knows he needs to change, but when the moment arrives he just can't seem to do it. For example, ever since he got here, he's talked about the increased importance of the 3-point shot and the need to improve the team's 3-point shooting. Yet in his second season here, after bringing in the players he wanted and coaching the guys already here for over a year, the Wolves were dead last in 3-point attempts. He continues to micro-manage the offense possession by possession and he continues to underutilize his bench. And as Jon K has reported, he hasn't developed any personal connection to anyone in the organization, players or front office colleagues. Someone I know in the organization recently told me that Thibodeau is as controlling behind the scenes in practice and in the front office as he is in games. As I see it, Thibodeau is who he is or, in the words of or beloved Denny Green, he is who we thought he was. So even if he knows he needs to change, I just don't see that happening. If I'm right, this will be his last season with the Wolves and Butler will leave as a free agent next summer. If I'm wrong, there's a chance the Wolves finish in the top 3 or 4 and enter the conversation as a one of the few teams in the conversation to play the Warriors in the Western Conference finals. I hope I'm wrong.

Personally I'm holding out some hope because just like players can improve their game over time I think Thibs and others in their position can improve what they do. To me I have seen SOME legit reports that's Thibs has made changes since his Bulls days like lighter physical practice days. The thing I hear you saying is whatever he is or isn't doing isn't enough to convince you he is going to change enough. That's a fair position whether he changes enough and I wonder the same thing. To me Thibs the POBO and the coach have done some things in a weird dichotomy. Sometimes I think your frustration with the roster has probably captured that about as well as anything. :) To me Tolliver is a signing in the right direction of what this team needs and likely what the coach will actually utilize. Rose is another bet on getting the best player available even if he doesn't exactly match what the team needs. To me he makes more sense than Bazz though although both of us held out hope Bazz could hit the 3 with some decent level of consistency. Okogie and KBD seem to make a ton of sense as draft picks. Terrell at least has a shot that looks like it can go in from anywhere outside of the paint. In theory he might help shooting while being a strong enough player with some decent athletic ability to be plenty switchable etc. These guys make more sense than Patton even though I like his skillset. Again Patton's injury really hurt Thibs and Layden's ability to look good (or at least not bad) with a young player who I think was a guy they took more of a swing for the fences with.

To me one of the biggest questions which isn't really talked about that might make or break this entire organization and Thibs and the team is what he actually does with Tyus and gets out him THIS season. It's sort of a litmus test for much of the roster. Sure Tyus isn't THE KEY to the season but I think whether Thibs follows through and plays him and gets the most out of him could show that he will play a young guy he said he would and also of Tyus plays more aggressive it would be a big deal all around. My point is that if Thibs does that and Tyus rewards him and the team with good play it will mean other guys are probably coming along as well AND it will give us hope that other young players can find that success also if not this year maybe in the future.

This might be a real stretch but if somehow Tyus and Thibs got on the same page I think suddenly you would have an interesting dynamic. I think you said it right that sometimes Thibs knows he needs to do something but...I think he does value Tyus and may even see the future as him as his starting PG down the road. I think Thibs knows he may really need Tyus and Tyus may figure this out and therefore have some real influence and we know players will gravitate towards Tyus. Heck Teague the guy he could replace is stumping for the guy to play.

[Lipoli390]

To me Towns can easily come off the wrong way partly because I think he tries so damn hard to do just that. IMO Towns, Wiggins and Butler actually all have a sort of blend of humility and ego. Butler is the guy that would show up to pretty much any event if asked (I saw that on Instagram he is going to MGH's kid's birthday party). Towns also seems interested in things outside of Basketball. Wiggins is a weird dude but I isn't dying to get in the spot light. Meanwhile you know all these guys have their idea of how they can be successful and the team can be as well. Thats normal. Jon K has reported fro months that the problem is that the most important pieces including these guys and Thibs aren't all on the same page. Jon has shared legit concerns that Thibs doesn't bring guys along with him while also saying Rubio probably needed too much involvement and in some ways is high maintenance. These things can take time to figure it all out. Lip and Kahns had a good back and forth about Towns. Jon says both Towns and Thibs need to give in a little and meet int he middle and both are stubborn in their way. Lots of coaches and players take some time to get it right. Jimmy needs to remember that while he worked his butt off to get where he was he didn't get it by the time these guys are their age now. I'm sure he see's their talent and wants them to get it NOW both selfishly and because I bet he does actually want those guys to succeed.

I don't see any of these players as complete problems they have their pluses and minuses as people and their approach. Wiggins is clearly the greatest mystery all the way around. That why I think this team just needs a player to really infuse the team with some positive energy. I think having someone that can play but also plays outside of the box would help things as well. I see Tolliver helping some in the first part. Okogie might help also. I don't know who the creative guy like Manu or Parker was for the Spurs but I think someone that can really force everyone to play in some improvisational ways would help.

I'd also guess that Thibs is also more of an actual human than he gets labeled as. I'm guessing he is learning as he goes doing all these difficult things some of them for the first time. Obviously he likes having control. He needs to let go of some of that and also be more open to innovating. Jon thinks Thibs is looking more towards doing some of that and its encouraging. Jon is the nicest dude but he has not held back in criticizing Thibs either the last 2 years. Some people do not think Thibs is capable of changing. I do. How much? idk regardless we are gonna have to wait and see. All of us want to see this team be better and I think it can. I don't think we have problems that cannot be worked out. This is why I think having a more fresh energetic voice like Jon Lucas III might help. All of us need some people with different strengths around us to get the best out of ourselves and whatever organizations we are apart of. People we don't talk about as much like assistants, various front office people, scouts and even sometimes who is at the end of the bench does matter.

Great post, Monster. I generally agree with all your points. But I still fall into the camp that doesn't see Thibs changing. Shortly after the Wolves hired Thibodeau I had a conversation with a basketball guy who has known Thibodeau personally for years. He likes Thibs and defended the hire in response to my expressed misgivings. But he also acknowledged that Thibodeau's characteristics could easily cause him to fail here. He said he talked with Thibodeau just after he was hired got the sense that getting fired had really humbled him and would probably lead him to understand that he'd have to change to be successful here. But after two years here, I don't see any evidence of significant change in Thibodeau's approach.

I think Thibodeau knows he needs to change, but when the moment arrives he just can't seem to do it. For example, ever since he got here, he's talked about the increased importance of the 3-point shot and the need to improve the team's 3-point shooting. Yet in his second season here, after bringing in the players he wanted and coaching the guys already here for over a year, the Wolves were dead last in 3-point attempts. He continues to micro-manage the offense possession by possession and he continues to underutilize his bench. And as Jon K has reported, he hasn't developed any personal connection to anyone in the organization, players or front office colleagues. Someone I know in the organization recently told me that Thibodeau is as controlling behind the scenes in practice and in the front office as he is in games. As I see it, Thibodeau is who he is or, in the words of or beloved Denny Green, he is who we thought he was. So even if he knows he needs to change, I just don't see that happening. If I'm right, this will be his last season with the Wolves and Butler will leave as a free agent next summer. If I'm wrong, there's a chance the Wolves finish in the top 3 or 4 and enter the conversation as a one of the few teams in the conversation to play the Warriors in the Western Conference finals. I hope I'm wrong.

Personally I'm holding out some hope because just like players can improve their game over time I think Thibs and others in their position can improve what they do. To me I have seen SOME legit reports that's Thibs has made changes since his Bulls days like lighter physical practice days. The thing I hear you saying is whatever he is or isn't doing isn't enough to convince you he is going to change enough. That's a fair position whether he changes enough and I wonder the same thing. To me Thibs the POBO and the coach have done some things in a weird dichotomy. Sometimes I think your frustration with the roster has probably captured that about as well as anything. :) To me Tolliver is a signing in the right direction of what this team needs and likely what the coach will actually utilize. Rose is another bet on getting the best player available even if he doesn't exactly match what the team needs. To me he makes more sense than Bazz though although both of us held out hope Bazz could hit the 3 with some decent level of consistency. Okogie and KBD seem to make a ton of sense as draft picks. Terrell at least has a shot that looks like it can go in from anywhere outside of the paint. In theory he might help shooting while being a strong enough player with some decent athletic ability to be plenty switchable etc. These guys make more sense than Patton even though I like his skillset. Again Patton's injury really hurt Thibs and Layden's ability to look good (or at least not bad) with a young player who I think was a guy they took more of a swing for the fences with.

To me one of the biggest questions which isn't really talked about that might make or break this entire organization and Thibs and the team is what he actually does with Tyus and gets out him THIS season. It's sort of a litmus test for much of the roster. Sure Tyus isn't THE KEY to the season but I think whether Thibs follows through and plays him and gets the most out of him could show that he will play a young guy he said he would and also of Tyus plays more aggressive it would be a big deal all around. My point is that if Thibs does that and Tyus rewards him and the team with good play it will mean other guys are probably coming along as well AND it will give us hope that other young players can find that success also if not this year maybe in the future.

This might be a real stretch but if somehow Tyus and Thibs got on the same page I think suddenly you would have an interesting dynamic. I think you said it right that sometimes Thibs knows he needs to do something but...I think he does value Tyus and may even see the future as him as his starting PG down the road. I think Thibs knows he may really need Tyus and Tyus may figure this out and therefore have some real influence and we know players will gravitate towards Tyus. Heck Teague the guy he could replace is stumping for the guy to play.

I like your take on Tyus as sort of a barometer for where this team is headed. It will tell is whether Thibs is actually showing some flexibility giving more time to Tyus at the expense of playing time for his guy, Teague. It will also signal in improvement in the team overall because comparing Tyus to Teague statistically strongly suggests the team would be better if Tyus significantly cut into Teague's playing time. Actually, the eye test tells me the same thing because the team clearly had better ball movement and spacing when Tyus was on the court.

As you said, Tyus isn't THE KEY to the season. The development of KAT and Wiggins along with Butler's ability to stay on the court are clearly the three most important keys. Improvement in the bench is another key, which means a big part of the Wolves fate this season will rest on the shoulders of our two rookies. But what happens with Tyus will be important and will be a bellweather for the team's relative success or failure.

[Monster]

To me Towns can easily come off the wrong way partly because I think he tries so damn hard to do just that. IMO Towns, Wiggins and Butler actually all have a sort of blend of humility and ego. Butler is the guy that would show up to pretty much any event if asked (I saw that on Instagram he is going to MGH's kid's birthday party). Towns also seems interested in things outside of Basketball. Wiggins is a weird dude but I isn't dying to get in the spot light. Meanwhile you know all these guys have their idea of how they can be successful and the team can be as well. Thats normal. Jon K has reported fro months that the problem is that the most important pieces including these guys and Thibs aren't all on the same page. Jon has shared legit concerns that Thibs doesn't bring guys along with him while also saying Rubio probably needed too much involvement and in some ways is high maintenance. These things can take time to figure it all out. Lip and Kahns had a good back and forth about Towns. Jon says both Towns and Thibs need to give in a little and meet int he middle and both are stubborn in their way. Lots of coaches and players take some time to get it right. Jimmy needs to remember that while he worked his butt off to get where he was he didn't get it by the time these guys are their age now. I'm sure he see's their talent and wants them to get it NOW both selfishly and because I bet he does actually want those guys to succeed.

I don't see any of these players as complete problems they have their pluses and minuses as people and their approach. Wiggins is clearly the greatest mystery all the way around. That why I think this team just needs a player to really infuse the team with some positive energy. I think having someone that can play but also plays outside of the box would help things as well. I see Tolliver helping some in the first part. Okogie might help also. I don't know who the creative guy like Manu or Parker was for the Spurs but I think someone that can really force everyone to play in some improvisational ways would help.

I'd also guess that Thibs is also more of an actual human than he gets labeled as. I'm guessing he is learning as he goes doing all these difficult things some of them for the first time. Obviously he likes having control. He needs to let go of some of that and also be more open to innovating. Jon thinks Thibs is looking more towards doing some of that and its encouraging. Jon is the nicest dude but he has not held back in criticizing Thibs either the last 2 years. Some people do not think Thibs is capable of changing. I do. How much? idk regardless we are gonna have to wait and see. All of us want to see this team be better and I think it can. I don't think we have problems that cannot be worked out. This is why I think having a more fresh energetic voice like Jon Lucas III might help. All of us need some people with different strengths around us to get the best out of ourselves and whatever organizations we are apart of. People we don't talk about as much like assistants, various front office people, scouts and even sometimes who is at the end of the bench does matter.

Great post, Monster. I generally agree with all your points. But I still fall into the camp that doesn't see Thibs changing. Shortly after the Wolves hired Thibodeau I had a conversation with a basketball guy who has known Thibodeau personally for years. He likes Thibs and defended the hire in response to my expressed misgivings. But he also acknowledged that Thibodeau's characteristics could easily cause him to fail here. He said he talked with Thibodeau just after he was hired got the sense that getting fired had really humbled him and would probably lead him to understand that he'd have to change to be successful here. But after two years here, I don't see any evidence of significant change in Thibodeau's approach.

I think Thibodeau knows he needs to change, but when the moment arrives he just can't seem to do it. For example, ever since he got here, he's talked about the increased importance of the 3-point shot and the need to improve the team's 3-point shooting. Yet in his second season here, after bringing in the players he wanted and coaching the guys already here for over a year, the Wolves were dead last in 3-point attempts. He continues to micro-manage the offense possession by possession and he continues to underutilize his bench. And as Jon K has reported, he hasn't developed any personal connection to anyone in the organization, players or front office colleagues. Someone I know in the organization recently told me that Thibodeau is as controlling behind the scenes in practice and in the front office as he is in games. As I see it, Thibodeau is who he is or, in the words of or beloved Denny Green, he is who we thought he was. So even if he knows he needs to change, I just don't see that happening. If I'm right, this will be his last season with the Wolves and Butler will leave as a free agent next summer. If I'm wrong, there's a chance the Wolves finish in the top 3 or 4 and enter the conversation as a one of the few teams in the conversation to play the Warriors in the Western Conference finals. I hope I'm wrong.

Personally I'm holding out some hope because just like players can improve their game over time I think Thibs and others in their position can improve what they do. To me I have seen SOME legit reports that's Thibs has made changes since his Bulls days like lighter physical practice days. The thing I hear you saying is whatever he is or isn't doing isn't enough to convince you he is going to change enough. That's a fair position whether he changes enough and I wonder the same thing. To me Thibs the POBO and the coach have done some things in a weird dichotomy. Sometimes I think your frustration with the roster has probably captured that about as well as anything. :) To me Tolliver is a signing in the right direction of what this team needs and likely what the coach will actually utilize. Rose is another bet on getting the best player available even if he doesn't exactly match what the team needs. To me he makes more sense than Bazz though although both of us held out hope Bazz could hit the 3 with some decent level of consistency. Okogie and KBD seem to make a ton of sense as draft picks. Terrell at least has a shot that looks like it can go in from anywhere outside of the paint. In theory he might help shooting while being a strong enough player with some decent athletic ability to be plenty switchable etc. These guys make more sense than Patton even though I like his skillset. Again Patton's injury really hurt Thibs and Layden's ability to look good (or at least not bad) with a young player who I think was a guy they took more of a swing for the fences with.

To me one of the biggest questions which isn't really talked about that might make or break this entire organization and Thibs and the team is what he actually does with Tyus and gets out him THIS season. It's sort of a litmus test for much of the roster. Sure Tyus isn't THE KEY to the season but I think whether Thibs follows through and plays him and gets the most out of him could show that he will play a young guy he said he would and also of Tyus plays more aggressive it would be a big deal all around. My point is that if Thibs does that and Tyus rewards him and the team with good play it will mean other guys are probably coming along as well AND it will give us hope that other young players can find that success also if not this year maybe in the future.

This might be a real stretch but if somehow Tyus and Thibs got on the same page I think suddenly you would have an interesting dynamic. I think you said it right that sometimes Thibs knows he needs to do something but...I think he does value Tyus and may even see the future as him as his starting PG down the road. I think Thibs knows he may really need Tyus and Tyus may figure this out and therefore have some real influence and we know players will gravitate towards Tyus. Heck Teague the guy he could replace is stumping for the guy to play.

I like your take on Tyus as sort of a barometer for where this team is headed. It will tell is whether Thibs is actually showing some flexibility giving more time to Tyus at the expense of playing time for his guy, Teague. It will also signal in improvement in the team overall because comparing Tyus to Teague statistically strongly suggests the team would be better if Tyus significantly cut into Teague's playing time. Actually, the eye test tells me the same thing because the team clearly had better ball movement and spacing when Tyus was on the court.

As you said, Tyus isn't THE KEY to the season. The development of KAT and Wiggins along with Butler's ability to stay on the court are clearly the three most important keys. Improvement in the bench is another key, which means a big part of the Wolves fate this season will rest on the shoulders of our two rookies. But what happens with Tyus will be important and will be a bellweather for the team's relative success or failure.

Agreed Lip.

I'll add that going into last season I said if Teague got on track quickly this team could really take off offensively. That really didn't happen he was just solid. He did get going in stretches where it looked like he was finally finding the right combination as the season went on but then missed time with injury that clearly got him off track. This allowed Tyus to shine at times but it also took Teague out of the groove he got into. In addition even though Brooks I think is a pretty capable 3rd PG he is clearly a step down from either Teague or Tyus espcially when he hadn't played in weeks. If Teague gets back to his usual healthy self and only misses a couple of games along with playing with these guys a 2nd season could help the team be even better offensively. I know you and others don't see much upside with Teague on this team but I think he is a guy that can help the team take a step forward in a small way. He isn't as big of a factor as Towns and Wiggins and maybe even Another young player like Tyus (or obviously what Butler gives you) but losing a legit starting level player for 10 games like we did last year isn't a small thing espcially when it's the PG of your team. We aren't going to magically have everyone healthy all year but Teague missing games was unexpected and part of the equation that's a little bit undersold in why we didn't do a little better record wise last season. To me we need to really take advantage of the fact that we have 2 well above replacement level PGs on the roster and use it to our advantage. If Thibs does a better job of utilizing that strength of the roster it would help and I think some different utilization's (playing with different units) could help Teague be more effective and useful. It was a very small sample but it SEEMED he worked well with Rose. Thibs kinda seemed more willing to mix things up his first season than he was last year.

[Lipoli390]

Monster -- You might be right about Teague. My take on Teague is that he was too inconsistent both offensively and defensively. Unfortunately, the one consistent thread in his game was overdribbling and failing to make his teammates better around him. His stats tell a big part of the tale. But maybe he'll improve and perhaps Thibodeau will play help bring out the best in him by playing him with different units as you suggested. I don't dislike Teague as a player; I just think he's grossly over-paid and not as good as Tyus on this team. I love Teague's attitude. He strikes me as a great teammate, always cheering his teammates on from the bench and advocating for Tyus to get more playing time.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

We might all be on the same page here and I'm speaking too early, or perhaps it needs to be said so it isn't lost, but Jeff Teague is still the best option we have at point guard. He's still a top-15 player at his position. I really like Tyus Jones, as does everyone else it seems, but he does not pose enough of a threat to score at this time to truly unseat Teague in the hierarchy.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

So, if we had to trade Butler.....and I realize Thibs isn't likely to do so......would you do this deal?

Houston gets: Butler, Dieng, Tyus
MN gets: re-signed Capela (near-max), Ryan Anderson

What I can't figure out is if Capela is a product of Houston's scheme, or if he can be a dominant player next to anyone. Certainly, he instantly improves our interior defense a ton. A move like this means we remain a bit stagnant this season, but opens up a ton of cap space next season by ridding ourselves of Diengs deal and Anderson expiring. Also, adds another pillar that fits the age range of Towns and Wiggins.

As I look at Houston's roster, I just question their ability to repeat last season due to a severe lack of depth. Carmelo is NOT the key to this team winning, in fact, he may be a net negative. Capela is what they need, but they don't seem willing to pay what he wants. In addition, Butler certainly provides the type of guy that can fit with Harden/Paul, and they would probably mesh on a personal level.

Just spit-ballin. Capela seems like an ideal fit for the Wolves given his ability to cover so much ground and provide interior toughness. I wouldn't trade Jimmy for many players, but the idea of Capela with this core is extremely interesting.

[thedoper]

We might all be on the same page here and I'm speaking too early, or perhaps it needs to be said so it isn't lost, but Jeff Teague is still the best option we have at point guard. He's still a top-15 player at his position. I really like Tyus Jones, as does everyone else it seems, but he does not pose enough of a threat to score at this time to truly unseat Teague in the hierarchy.

I think this is probably still the consensus in spite of all the heat Teague takes on this board. Teague is a weird player because when he's on our team is really great, but then has some real down games too. A lot like Wiggins. The main thing I was surprised by seeing him up close for a year was how inconsistent he was (maybe it's a Minnesota trait?). He was way more creative with the ball that I imagined, and a good decision maker. He had a weird lapse in shooting early in the year too. Maybe it was the new environment? Either way PG and Pg depth are not my worries for this team. It's still the first wings and bigs off the bench.