AbeVigodaLive wrote:1. You MUST blame the players. Superstar players overcome bad coaching. You guys want a list of star players who overcame bad coaching? It's very very long.
Wiggins has NOT improved in multiple years... with multiple coaches. Eventually, a superstar player... or even a star player... figures it out for himself if he wants it enough. He does NOT stagnate or regress. If Wiggins became even an All Star at this point... it would be a huge anomaly in the 70 year history of the league. Other guys have shown only minimal improvement. Or, stagnation for a couple of years before exploding. But we're in Year 5 and he's already gotten paid (See #2). It aint happening in any kind of meaningful way. Sorry guys.
2. Entitlement. This one is a gray area. But I've mentioned it repeatedly on this site. So a 22-year-old already known for inconsistent effort and doing things his way is rewarded with $150M. And we expect him to suddenly change? Why would he? Neither guy has even been benched for bad efforts... so there's really no incentive. Yelling from the coach and public insults from a former teammate didn't seem to do much either.
And back to the money thing... YES. It is about the money sometimes. It would be foolish/myopic/naive to think otherwise.
3. Thibs. He's gotta go. I think we all (or most of us) agree. But on the list of reasons for the stagnation and/or regression for Wiggins and Towns... he's not at the top of the list for reason #1.
4. Glen Taylor. I don't think we can talk about too many dysfunctional things in this organization without bringing up the guy in charge of the league's worst NBA franchise... EVER. It's a losing culture. And to think the owner has nothing to do with that is giving him a free pass he definitely doesn't deserve.
There is merit in what you're saying, but how do you explain how a guy goes from scoring 23.6 ppg under one coach, to 16.3 ppg under another? And all this happens a couple years before he even gets into his prime? And how does the shooting percentage have a similar drop off? I think it's clear someone isn't being used to take advantage of his abilities. I've long given up on the idea of Wiggins being a superstar, but I sure hope we get to see him under a different regime before he gets casted away.
Maybe someone already point this out but the Wiggins season scoring 23ppg was under this coach named Tom Thibodeau. Maybe you have heard of him. :) Sorry I just thought it was too funny not to point it out. Who gets the blame for Wiggins not being better? It's a shared thing as well as some bad luck with Glip passing away. It's clear he isn't a great player at this point that can overcome circumstances and be the guy he could be despite stuff. A lot of that has to be on him.
I'll say it again I don't really care much about Wigginsscoring this year. Even with his flaws he can put up some points. I want to see defense energy and do some other shit. I haven't seen the Auns loss but Wiggins looks like he is giving a shit most nights. That's the important development for me. An above average defense that could still turn into a Derozen type scorer? Damn good player. There is still time for it to happen.
I feel Wiggins has really turned into a good defender with the potential to improve further. When his shots fall he's a plus player for us. Hope he keeps it going.
WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
Dozens upon Dozens?? Well, I can name three: Bjelica, Rubio and Dunn. That doesn't help your narrative, though.
WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
Dozens upon Dozens?? Well, I can name three: Bjelica, Rubio and Dunn. That doesn't help your narrative, though.
Do you really want me to list a bunch of NBA players who have shown improvement over the first few years in the league? Do you really think that's a crazy narrative?
WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
So what is your solution? What can the Wolves do now to create a contender?
WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
So what is your solution? What can the Wolves do now to create a contender?
1. Hope and pray that Wiggins and KAT figure things out and improve significantly... even if it's going against NBA norms.
2. Get a better front office/coaching staff to get more from each of them.
Both are necessary. #1 is more important than #2 though.
WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
So what is your solution? What can the Wolves do now to create a contender?
1. Hope and pray that Wiggins and KAT figure things out and improve significantly... even if it's going against NBA norms.
2. Get a better front office/coaching staff to get more from each of them.
Both are necessary. #1 is more important than #2 though.
We're on the same page. It's just weird to see you try and defend Thibs at this point though. It's obviously up to KAT and Wiggins to do the best they can, but it's also up to the coaching and FO to surround them with the best talent and put them in the best position to succeed. Thibs has failed miserably.
WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
So what is your solution? What can the Wolves do now to create a contender?
1. Hope and pray that Wiggins and KAT figure things out and improve significantly... even if it's going against NBA norms.
2. Get a better front office/coaching staff to get more from each of them.
Both are necessary. #1 is more important than #2 though.
We're on the same page. It's just weird to see you try and defend Thibs at this point though. It's obviously up to KAT and Wiggins to do the best they can, but it's also up to the coaching and FO to surround them with the best talent and put them in the best position to succeed. Thibs has failed miserably.
I apologize for being a bit aggressive with this post... but...
- Are you a bad troll or illiterate?
I've literally called for Thibs' firing at least a dozen times in the past week or so... including in the post you just quoted for chrissakes. But you -- and many others -- claim I'm defending the guy for not blaming him for everything wrong with the team as well as the economy, immigration controls and probably the murder of the Saudi Arabian journalist.
Stop it. Read what people write without editorializing. Thanks.
[Note: If you're only trolling... cool. I can play that game pretty well. I just didn't know it was that sort of a forum.]
WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
So what is your solution? What can the Wolves do now to create a contender?
1. Hope and pray that Wiggins and KAT figure things out and improve significantly... even if it's going against NBA norms.
2. Get a better front office/coaching staff to get more from each of them.
Both are necessary. #1 is more important than #2 though.
We're on the same page. It's just weird to see you try and defend Thibs at this point though. It's obviously up to KAT and Wiggins to do the best they can, but it's also up to the coaching and FO to surround them with the best talent and put them in the best position to succeed. Thibs has failed miserably.
I apologize for being a bit aggressive with this post... but...
- Are you a bad troll or illiterate?
I've literally called for Thibs' firing at least a dozen times in the past week or so... including in the post you just quoted for chrissakes. But you -- and many others -- claim I'm defending the guy for not blaming him for everything wrong with the team as well as the economy, immigration controls and probably the murder of the Saudi Arabian journalist.
Stop it. Read what people write without editorializing. Thanks.
[Note: If you're only trolling... cool. I can play that game pretty well. I just didn't know it was that sort of a forum.]
Not trolling at all and yes of course I've seen you say he needs replacing. The issue is, we don't know how good KAT, Wiggins and the team would be with a different coach/PBO. I think that you are assuming that it's almost all on the players. But as I pointed out, the players can only do the best they can. If they hate the coach, hate his yelling it's going to be a toxic environment (I'm making a guess here). Thibs could have done more harm then good. We don't know until we get someone else in place. Put the players in a position on and off the court to succeed and maximize their talent.
If Brad Stevens (name any good coach) was the coach would the Wolves be better? I think they would.
What we do know is that the Wolves are failing and that falls on Thibs the Coach and/or Thibs the PBO. It's as simple as that.
