WolvesFan21 wrote:Only the truly special best of the best can overcome a bad organization, poor management, bad coaching and help take the team and franchise to the next level. LeBron, Jordan, etc. You can even throw in a guy like Dirk, I remember the Mavs being horrific before he came into his prime. Even KG couldn't get this franchise over the hump.
So yes it's a combination of things. It's up to the player and their natural gifts to take them and the team up a notch. It's up to the front office (Thibs) to surround the team with the best talent and functional chemistry as well. It's up to the Owner who hires the coach to get the team to play the best.
Shaq recruited Phil Jackson in LA, he mentioned Riley as a prime reason he went to the Heat. Coaching and management matter. You can't win unless you surround the team with the most talent you can.
Does it helped people crowned Wiggins and KAT before they won anything? Nope. Does it help that management and coaching suck? Nope that doesn't help either.
I think we were hoping that KAT and/or Wiggins could be that top 5 elite level player. For KAT it's not too late. I think for Wigs that's super slim at this point. What's the saying, a Leopard can't change it's spots. Wigs isn't going to all of a sudden become a great ball handler and with a great motor, unlesss he decides he is tired of losing.
Sure.
But that's not my point. I agree with you that it usually takes more than a great player to take a franchise to the next level. I'm a realist.
I'm simply talking about players not even able to show meaningful or tangible improvement in their own games after 4 or 5 seasons. That's not a lot to ask. There are dozens upon dozens of players around the league at this very moment who have done that... and many while playing for mediocre or bad coaches.
So what is your solution? What can the Wolves do now to create a contender?
1. Hope and pray that Wiggins and KAT figure things out and improve significantly... even if it's going against NBA norms.
2. Get a better front office/coaching staff to get more from each of them.
Both are necessary. #1 is more important than #2 though.
We're on the same page. It's just weird to see you try and defend Thibs at this point though. It's obviously up to KAT and Wiggins to do the best they can, but it's also up to the coaching and FO to surround them with the best talent and put them in the best position to succeed. Thibs has failed miserably.
I apologize for being a bit aggressive with this post... but...
- Are you a bad troll or illiterate?
I've literally called for Thibs' firing at least a dozen times in the past week or so... including in the post you just quoted for chrissakes. But you -- and many others -- claim I'm defending the guy for not blaming him for everything wrong with the team as well as the economy, immigration controls and probably the murder of the Saudi Arabian journalist.
Stop it. Read what people write without editorializing. Thanks.
[Note: If you're only trolling... cool. I can play that game pretty well. I just didn't know it was that sort of a forum.]
Not trolling at all and yes of course I've seen you say he needs replacing. The issue is, we don't know how good KAT, Wiggins and the team would be with a different coach/PBO. I think that you are assuming that it's almost all on the players. But as I pointed out, the players can only do the best they can. If they hate the coach, hate his yelling it's going to be a toxic environment (I'm making a guess here). Thibs could have done more harm then good. We don't know until we get someone else in place. Put the players in a position on and off the court to succeed and maximize their talent.
If Brad Stevens (name any good coach) was the coach would the Wolves be better? I think they would.
What we do know is that the Wolves are failing and that falls on Thibs the Coach and/or Thibs the PBO. It's as simple as that.
I don't know why/how this remains a complicated take.
Blaming the players is NOT defending Thibs. It's simply putting the onus on the player... just like has been done for 70 years. I don't want to watch a sport where success and failure of every athlete is entirely dictated by obese old men on the sidelines. Do you?
NO star player in NBA history has stagnated or regressed for 4 or 5 seasons... and then suddenly became a star with another coach.
Star players become stars despite of how poorly they are coached. It happened in 1947... and it still happens today. Claiming Andrew Wiggins simply needs a new coach to show any sign of growth in Year 6 is banging your head against a cement wall.
Thibs is not helping them become stars. WE ALL AGREE. But that he is primarily responsible for them not improving? That's giving those guys a pass they don't need. Let's not forget that Wiggins is on his 3rd coach.
Abe - I think this could even be a much more serious issue though. With the Butler disaster, we all know the details (sleeping with KATs girlfriend? Demanding a trade, causing friction throughout the team, being an asshat). To Thibs himself who is likely the most obnoxious coach in the league. This was and could still be a toxic environment to be playing in. Have you ever had a Boss or coworker that you just didn't want to be around, even hated?
I'm not giving the players a pass, but I think you are likely underestimating the damage done by Thibs/Butler also.
WolvesFan21 wrote:Abe - I think this could even be a much more serious issue though. With the Butler disaster, we all know the details (sleeping with KATs girlfriend? Demanding a trade, causing friction throughout the team, being an asshat). To Thibs himself who is likely the most obnoxious coach in the league. This was and could still be a toxic environment to be playing in. Have you ever had a Boss or coworker that you just didn't want to be around, even hated?
I'm not giving the players a pass, but I think you are likely underestimating the damage done by Thibs/Butler also.
And you're basing all of this on your own assumptions... or has Wiggins and KAT been more vocal about how much they hate Thibs?
They make a collective $280M or whatever... they have a lot more clout than Thibodeau and could have him fired pretty quickly if the situation was as toxic as you insinuate.
Man, this has gome 4 pages. Just agree to disagree with abe. He is 70+ so he aint backing down. He made his points. Once someone starts throwing the age and his/her years into it, it is usually my cue to end the discussion.
Ive seen enough abe posts over the years that i can only think of jason as the guy who can make abe give up on arguing his points on a topic for a different reason.
Thibs aint going to be fired this season. Wig and kat are not the types who will demand their coach be fired and glen will not do it on his own unless his POBO tell him to fire the coach, in this case the POBO happens to be THE coach. So it is a topic to be settled in the future.
worldK wrote:Man, this has gome 4 pages. Just agree to disagree with abe. He is 70+ so he aint backing down. He made his points. Once someone starts throwing the age and his/her years into it, it is usually my cue to end the discussion.
Ive seen enough abe posts over the years that i can only think of jason as the guy who can make abe give up on arguing his points on a topic for a different reason.
Thibs aint going to be fired this season. Wig and kat are not the types who will demand their coach be fired and glen will not do it on his own unless his POBO tell him to fire the coach, in this case the POBO happens to be THE coach. So it is a topic to be settled in the future.
I never claimed I was 70+ years old for chrissakes.
Yikes.
[Note: I assume you're the one trolling now... or reading poorly?]
worldK wrote:Man, this has gome 4 pages. Just agree to disagree with abe. He is 70+ so he aint backing down. He made his points. Once someone starts throwing the age and his/her years into it, it is usually my cue to end the discussion.
Ive seen enough abe posts over the years that i can only think of jason as the guy who can make abe give up on arguing his points on a topic for a different reason.
Thibs aint going to be fired this season. Wig and kat are not the types who will demand their coach be fired and glen will not do it on his own unless his POBO tell him to fire the coach, in this case the POBO happens to be THE coach. So it is a topic to be settled in the future.
I never claimed I was 70+ years old for chrissakes.
Yikes.
[Note: I assume you're the one trolling now... or reading poorly?]
Misread it. My bad.
Still. Thibs is not going to be fired this season. Wig and towns may have all the clout as you said but it aint in them to demand a coach be fired. Glen is not going to do anything this season as he even said so. So this only getsettled once we have a new coach and we get to see how things play out with wig and towns in a year or two. You cant say your right at this moment nor can the other party. You made your points and juat let it play out.
worldK wrote:Man, this has gome 4 pages. Just agree to disagree with abe. He is 70+ so he aint backing down. He made his points. Once someone starts throwing the age and his/her years into it, it is usually my cue to end the discussion.
Ive seen enough abe posts over the years that i can only think of jason as the guy who can make abe give up on arguing his points on a topic for a different reason.
Thibs aint going to be fired this season. Wig and kat are not the types who will demand their coach be fired and glen will not do it on his own unless his POBO tell him to fire the coach, in this case the POBO happens to be THE coach. So it is a topic to be settled in the future.
I never claimed I was 70+ years old for chrissakes.
Yikes.
[Note: I assume you're the one trolling now... or reading poorly?]
Misread it. My bad.
Still. Thibs is not going to be fired this season. Wig and towns may have all the clout as you said but it aint in them to demand a coach be fired. Glen is not going to do anything this season as he even said so. So this only getsettled once we have a new coach and we get to see how things play out with wig and towns in a year or two. You cant say your right at this moment nor can the other party. You made your points and juat let it play out.
I'm ok with disagreeing.
But as we've seen repeatedly in this thread... people don't even read what I'm writing or completely miss the point... know what I mean?
People think I'm "defending" Thibs. Or, that I'm claiming I'm right because I'm 70+ years old.
worldK wrote:Man, this has gome 4 pages. Just agree to disagree with abe. He is 70+ so he aint backing down. He made his points. Once someone starts throwing the age and his/her years into it, it is usually my cue to end the discussion.
Ive seen enough abe posts over the years that i can only think of jason as the guy who can make abe give up on arguing his points on a topic for a different reason.
Thibs aint going to be fired this season. Wig and kat are not the types who will demand their coach be fired and glen will not do it on his own unless his POBO tell him to fire the coach, in this case the POBO happens to be THE coach. So it is a topic to be settled in the future.
I never claimed I was 70+ years old for chrissakes.
Yikes.
[Note: I assume you're the one trolling now... or reading poorly?]
Misread it. My bad.
Still. Thibs is not going to be fired this season. Wig and towns may have all the clout as you said but it aint in them to demand a coach be fired. Glen is not going to do anything this season as he even said so. So this only getsettled once we have a new coach and we get to see how things play out with wig and towns in a year or two. You cant say your right at this moment nor can the other party. You made your points and juat let it play out.
I'm ok with disagreeing.
But as we've seen repeatedly in this thread... people don't even read what I'm writing or completely miss the point... know what I mean?
People think I'm "defending" Thibs. Or, that I'm claiming I'm right because I'm 70+ years old.
Ahem, ahem. Pretty silly stuff.
Coaches and FO guys can much more easily be changed. I am speculating on a few things sure about the toxic nature, but it comes from observation and results. Butler even said in an interview that he "initially" hated Thibs in Chicago. That interview was done right after he was traded to MN. Then Butler himself, which Thibs new well completely bailed on Thibs and caused a major distraction within the organization.
With the players regressing, players demanding to leave, the record being a failure. There is only one guy we can change that can easily change the culture and environment. That is Thibs.
Sure the players make a difference, but thats on Thibs too. He signed them, resigned them or traded for them. So if the most talented roster is a failure after three years of coaching "up". Thibs is the most to blame.
worldK wrote:Man, this has gome 4 pages. Just agree to disagree with abe. He is 70+ so he aint backing down. He made his points. Once someone starts throwing the age and his/her years into it, it is usually my cue to end the discussion.
Ive seen enough abe posts over the years that i can only think of jason as the guy who can make abe give up on arguing his points on a topic for a different reason.
Thibs aint going to be fired this season. Wig and kat are not the types who will demand their coach be fired and glen will not do it on his own unless his POBO tell him to fire the coach, in this case the POBO happens to be THE coach. So it is a topic to be settled in the future.
I never claimed I was 70+ years old for chrissakes.
Yikes.
[Note: I assume you're the one trolling now... or reading poorly?]
Misread it. My bad.
Still. Thibs is not going to be fired this season. Wig and towns may have all the clout as you said but it aint in them to demand a coach be fired. Glen is not going to do anything this season as he even said so. So this only getsettled once we have a new coach and we get to see how things play out with wig and towns in a year or two. You cant say your right at this moment nor can the other party. You made your points and juat let it play out.
I'm ok with disagreeing.
But as we've seen repeatedly in this thread... people don't even read what I'm writing or completely miss the point... know what I mean?
People think I'm "defending" Thibs. Or, that I'm claiming I'm right because I'm 70+ years old.
Ahem, ahem. Pretty silly stuff.
Coaches and FO guys can much more easily be changed. I am speculating on a few things sure about the toxic nature, but it comes from observation and results. Butler even said in an interview that he "initially" hated Thibs in Chicago. That interview was done right after he was traded to MN. Then Butler himself, which Thibs new well completely bailed on Thibs and caused a major distraction within the organization.
With the players regressing, players demanding to leave, the record being a failure. There is only one guy we can change that can easily change the culture and environment. That is Thibs.
Sure the players make a difference, but thats on Thibs too. He signed them, resigned them or traded for them. So if the most talented roster is a failure after three years of coaching "up". Thibs is the most to blame.
Hmmmm... seems to me that you're the one not ok with disagreeing...
worldK wrote:Man, this has gome 4 pages. Just agree to disagree with abe. He is 70+ so he aint backing down. He made his points. Once someone starts throwing the age and his/her years into it, it is usually my cue to end the discussion.
Ive seen enough abe posts over the years that i can only think of jason as the guy who can make abe give up on arguing his points on a topic for a different reason.
Thibs aint going to be fired this season. Wig and kat are not the types who will demand their coach be fired and glen will not do it on his own unless his POBO tell him to fire the coach, in this case the POBO happens to be THE coach. So it is a topic to be settled in the future.
I never claimed I was 70+ years old for chrissakes.
Yikes.
[Note: I assume you're the one trolling now... or reading poorly?]
Misread it. My bad.
Still. Thibs is not going to be fired this season. Wig and towns may have all the clout as you said but it aint in them to demand a coach be fired. Glen is not going to do anything this season as he even said so. So this only getsettled once we have a new coach and we get to see how things play out with wig and towns in a year or two. You cant say your right at this moment nor can the other party. You made your points and juat let it play out.
I'm ok with disagreeing.
But as we've seen repeatedly in this thread... people don't even read what I'm writing or completely miss the point... know what I mean?
People think I'm "defending" Thibs. Or, that I'm claiming I'm right because I'm 70+ years old.
Ahem, ahem. Pretty silly stuff.
Coaches and FO guys can much more easily be changed. I am speculating on a few things sure about the toxic nature, but it comes from observation and results. Butler even said in an interview that he "initially" hated Thibs in Chicago. That interview was done right after he was traded to MN. Then Butler himself, which Thibs new well completely bailed on Thibs and caused a major distraction within the organization.
With the players regressing, players demanding to leave, the record being a failure. There is only one guy we can change that can easily change the culture and environment. That is Thibs.
Sure the players make a difference, but thats on Thibs too. He signed them, resigned them or traded for them. So if the most talented roster is a failure after three years of coaching "up". Thibs is the most to blame.
Hmmmm... seems to me that you're the one not ok with disagreeing...
Hmm.. i didnt pick sides. Its an issue that will never be resolved now. That is all im saying. It is what it is.
