thedoper wrote:There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.
Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.
I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.
The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.
I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.
Are we really touting Wiggins for getting 6 rebounds like it's some sort of awesome stat... especially against a team that was playing its 3rd string center?
It's competent. It's fine. It's ok. It's pretty solid if that's what he averaged. Cool. 10 points is not enough. 0 assists is not competent. His field goal and free throw shooting was not competent.
His defense? It's always going to be hard to find tangible evidence one way or another because of the nature of it... but beyond a select group of Wolves fans on sites like these... I haven't heard anybody else praising Wiggins for his defense in the past 5 seasons.
And the stats, flawed or not, gimmick or not, obtuse or not, seem to point that out.
Just for fun... Wolves players who play with + defensive BPM:
Covington
Butler
KAT
Gibson
Dieng
Okogie
Guys with - negative BPM:
Tolliver
Jones
Saric
Wiggins
Teague
Rose
Those categories largely agree with my eye test, although I would say DRPM exactly matches my eye test. DRPM moves Tyus to positive and Okogie to negative (I see the potential that you all see in Josh, but he is way too raw to be a positive factor at this juncture), and has Gorgui and Tolliver roughly breakeven. And Andrew is a negative by almost any defensive measure you want to cite.
I hear Monster and Doper defending Wig's defense last night and I have to admit I saw a few good plays. But I saw just as many terrible ones (like the last defensive play of the game where Taj picked Wig up after Booker blew by him like he was standing still). Ultimately defense is about three factors...athleticism, technique and effort...and Wig only excels in one of the three. Until he learns how to consistently bring effort, he will continue to look bad in all defensive measures.
Yeah. Jones is the one guy who looks good via the eye test. But is smaller and not a great athlete (relatively speaking) so I don't know how much that plays into it. He seems really smart defensively though.
The larger point is that there's literally nothing of substance/tangible to latch on to for proving Wiggins is a plus player.
On that last play Wiggins got burned but it looked like he actually knocked the ball out before Taj got it. Taj deserves more credit on making the play but Wiggins got back into the play and had an effect.
To be honest... I'm definitely not talking about one play.
Or a game. Or a month. And at this point... even a season.
I was responding to LST's view of that play (since it was in his words the defensive play of the game) and just quoted your post since it was a continuation of the conversation.
Just to be clear Inna few weeks or months when this season ends I might be banging the drum as much as anyone to deal Wiggins. I just doubt the move is gonna be made now (Layden is in charge how long?We already made a big trade and changed coaches) and we have another chunk of games to analyze before the end of the season. As Jon K and other have said the rest of the season is more on the players including Wiggins. There isn't many more excuses. Like you have said for a long time now a change of pace might be the thing that's right for Wiggins. I guess my issue is that I'm wanting to have an analysis in my mind of everything about him meh good and bad. I don't know if that always happens here. I get why I just truly think people here are smarter and better than that.
The problem with Wiggins is obviously we traded Love for him and he was the 1st overall pick. But just forget that (it doesn't matter anymore) the main issue is we paid him max money so anything less than that is a net negative. Max players should be at least close to All Star level players at their positions, especially if you expect to contend. What we are getting is below avg play from him so our ROI is horrific. I can name 20 wings I would trade for him straight up or offer some additional compensation.
It's fair to criticize a player who gives avg to bad results on a regular basis. Who we can see doesn't give 100% effort almost ever. Yeah he's played a bunch of minutes too, that is part of the problem!!!
If I was Thibs I would have benched him anytime I saw lower than max effort. Until he did he can sit and watch. I can excuse lower level talent or ability, but I can't excuse low effort.
If I am Ryan, I am benching him too. This team isn't going anywhere if Wiggins doesn't improve (or until he's gone).
WolvesFan21 wrote:The problem with Wiggins is obviously we traded Love for him and he was the 1st overall pick. But just forget that (it doesn't matter anymore) the main issue is we paid him max money so anything less than that is a net negative. Max players should be at least close to All Star level players at their positions, especially if you expect to contend. What we are getting is below avg play from him so our ROI is horrific. I can name 20 wings I would trade for him straight up or offer some additional compensation.
It's fair to criticize a player who gives avg to bad results on a regular basis. Who we can see doesn't give 100% effort almost ever. Yeah he's played a bunch of minutes too, that is part of the problem!!!
If I was Thibs I would have benched him anytime I saw lower than max effort. Until he did he can sit and watch. I can excuse lower level talent or ability, but I can't excuse low effort.
If I am Ryan, I am benching him too. This team isn't going anywhere if Wiggins doesn't improve (or until he's gone).
I honestly don't think this tactic will work with him at this point. If we bench him, it should be because we actually have a better option on the bench. Right now, there is none.
WolvesFan21 wrote:The problem with Wiggins is obviously we traded Love for him and he was the 1st overall pick. But just forget that (it doesn't matter anymore) the main issue is we paid him max money so anything less than that is a net negative. Max players should be at least close to All Star level players at their positions, especially if you expect to contend. What we are getting is below avg play from him so our ROI is horrific. I can name 20 wings I would trade for him straight up or offer some additional compensation.
It's fair to criticize a player who gives avg to bad results on a regular basis. Who we can see doesn't give 100% effort almost ever. Yeah he's played a bunch of minutes too, that is part of the problem!!!
If I was Thibs I would have benched him anytime I saw lower than max effort. Until he did he can sit and watch. I can excuse lower level talent or ability, but I can't excuse low effort.
If I am Ryan, I am benching him too. This team isn't going anywhere if Wiggins doesn't improve (or until he's gone).
I honestly don't think this tactic will work with him at this point. If we bench him, it should be because we actually have a better option on the bench. Right now, there is none.
Yep, and that is the thing, Wiggins how sad it is, is still by far the best option we have. Its annoying but benching him doesn't solve anything because he is still a better player than Okogie and he Rose can't continue to play heavy minutes and is a bad defender. We don't have a better option at this point.
thedoper wrote:There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.
Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.
I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.
The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.
I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.
Are we really touting Wiggins for getting 6 rebounds like it's some sort of awesome stat... especially against a team that was playing its 3rd string center?
It's competent. It's fine. It's ok. It's pretty solid if that's what he averaged. Cool. 10 points is not enough. 0 assists is not competent. His field goal and free throw shooting was not competent.
His defense? It's always going to be hard to find tangible evidence one way or another because of the nature of it... but beyond a select group of Wolves fans on sites like these... I haven't heard anybody else praising Wiggins for his defense in the past 5 seasons.
And the stats, flawed or not, gimmick or not, obtuse or not, seem to point that out.
Just for fun... Wolves players who play with + defensive BPM:
Covington
Butler
KAT
Gibson
Dieng
Okogie
Guys with - negative BPM:
Tolliver
Jones
Saric
Wiggins
Teague
Rose
Of the starters Wiggins plays the most minutes with the Bench unit so yes it impacts his BPM. I get it. I don't negate stats. I just see basketball minds (Flip, Mitchell, Thibs, Ryan) who see the stats still want to play him a lot and give him a lot responsibility on the defensive end. If I had a team with Wiggins on it I would be doing the same thing.
I side with Q on this, there is no better option right now. Maybe better options emerge in time, but benching Wiggins at this point is a tanking strategy because it would make us even worse. I doubt Ryan would bench Wiggins even when Roco comes back because his body has always been more suited to play and defend the 2. I don't ever seeing anyone here saying his game isn't problematic. I do find it a bit amusing that trying to point out anything positive about his game is met with contempt. He'd get significant playing time on every team in the league based on his ability, even though he's problematic. Worth the max, not now, but calling for his benching is crazy.
thedoper wrote:There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.
Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.
I guess we just need a coach who understands those defensive advanced stats that doesn't see the point of putting Wiggins as the primary defensive assignment on dynamic ball handlers. We don't win that game last night without the effort Wiggins was a part of in the 4th to hold the Suns to 18pts. I guess I'll have to go against the amazing defensive metrics that exist now that I am unaware of.
The former Wizards video coordinator I follow on Twitter had a whole thread about how defensive metrics are highly flawed. I'll have to read it and post if it's actually worthwhile.
I'm all for Benching Wiggins if he isn't giving effort or whatever but idk if last night was the night to do it with a short handed team. He was tied with Saric for first with +7 magical +- stat. He had some poor defensive possessions but so did over half the team it felt like. Nobody is talking about the 6 rebounds he had. Honestly it feels like it's often only about if he puts the ball in the bucket whether it's at the FT or otherwise. If he has a bad night shooting it seems like the narrative is there is no way is he doing anything else. I'm not saying he was good in this game but it seems like some other people thought he made some impact besides some bad shots and misses around the rim (wasn't the only one). Wiggins deserves a lot of the criticism he gets but man it's tough sometimes.
Are we really touting Wiggins for getting 6 rebounds like it's some sort of awesome stat... especially against a team that was playing its 3rd string center?
It's competent. It's fine. It's ok. It's pretty solid if that's what he averaged. Cool. 10 points is not enough. 0 assists is not competent. His field goal and free throw shooting was not competent.
His defense? It's always going to be hard to find tangible evidence one way or another because of the nature of it... but beyond a select group of Wolves fans on sites like these... I haven't heard anybody else praising Wiggins for his defense in the past 5 seasons.
And the stats, flawed or not, gimmick or not, obtuse or not, seem to point that out.
Just for fun... Wolves players who play with + defensive BPM:
Covington
Butler
KAT
Gibson
Dieng
Okogie
Guys with - negative BPM:
Tolliver
Jones
Saric
Wiggins
Teague
Rose
Of the starters Wiggins plays the most minutes with the Bench unit so yes it impacts his BPM. I get it. I don't negate stats. I just see basketball minds (Flip, Mitchell, Thibs, Ryan) who see the stats still want to play him a lot and give him a lot responsibility on the defensive end. If I had a team with Wiggins on it I would be doing the same thing.
I side with Q on this, there is no better option right now. Maybe better options emerge in time, but benching Wiggins at this point is a tanking strategy because it would make us even worse. I doubt Ryan would bench Wiggins even when Roco comes back because his body has always been more suited to play and defend the 2. I don't ever seeing anyone here saying his game isn't problematic. I do find it a bit amusing that trying to point out anything positive about his game is met with contempt. He'd get significant playing time on every team in the league based on his ability, even though he's problematic. Worth the max, not now, but calling for his benching is crazy.
I'm not calling for him to be benched. Obviously, there's nobody else to take those minutes.
I'm merely pointing out that he's a below average NBA player for five years running now that is being paid max money.
To expect that the team can overcome that ridiculous situation above is a lot to ask of fans. And I'm well beyond the point of saying things like "Well, he had that one good rebounding game" or "He's not totally terrible doing that" or "What if he could score 40 points and play with energy every night... what if!?!?!?!
I'll tone down my Wiggins bashing soon enough. I promise. I'll just sneak in jabs here and there again. But I want to be very clear that Andrew Wiggins is currently holding an entire organization hostage with his "potential"
Just like he has for five years now. Only we've gone from "potential to be a superstar" to "potential to be a star" to "potential to be really good" to "potential to be an average NBA player."
Move over Rashad McCants. Andrew Wiggins deserves my unbridled scorn and ridicule as least favorite Wolves player of all time.
