T Wolves vs Suns - Battle for the Bottom Seed.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Of course I would have liked to see us blow out the Suns, but it seems like we always play down to their level...at least we didn't lose this one like the last game against them. And even though we shouldn't have to struggle to beat the Suns, I continue to be impressed with the late game coaching of Saunders (more on this in a Saunders thread)...his management is night and day better compared to his predecessor.

Easy to talk about KAT and Rose, but what about the heart and effectiveness of Taj Gibson? 17 points on only 8 shots, and Rose isn't in position to make the game winner if he doesn't create the turnover...all on his own after Booker had beaten Wiggins.

And speaking of Wig, I found last night's game to be his worst of the season...and there's a lot of competition for that title. 3-14 shooting and 3-7 from the line (including 4 misses late in the game), and absolutely no heart shown the entire game. At one point I thought I saw KAT looking exasperated with him and trying to get him fired up, with Wig just looking dispassionately away. I'll admit he did a few good things on defense, but not nearly enough to make up for other defensive lapses and complete offensive ineffectiveness...shame on Ryan Saunders for giving this almost worthless player 40 minutes last night.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Of course I would have liked to see us blow out the Suns, but it seems like we always play down to their level...at least we didn't lose this one like the last game against them. And even though we shouldn't have to struggle to beat the Suns, I continue to be impressed with the late game coaching of Saunders (more on this in a Saunders thread)...his management is night and day better compared to his predecessor.

Easy to talk about KAT and Rose, but what about the heart and effectiveness of Taj Gibson? 17 points on only 8 shots, and Rose isn't in position to make the game winner if he doesn't create the turnover...all on his own after Booker had beaten Wiggins.

And speaking of Wig, I found last night's game to be his worst of the season...and there's a lot of competition for that title. 3-14 shooting and 3-7 from the line (including 4 misses late in the game), and absolutely no heart shown the entire game. At one point I thought I saw KAT looking exasperated with him and trying to get him fired up, with Wig just looking dispassionately away. I'll admit he did a few good things on defense, but not nearly enough to make up for other defensive lapses and complete offensive ineffectiveness...shame on Ryan Saunders for giving this almost worthless player 40 minutes last night.

There haven't been any repercussions for Wiggins bad games in nearly 5 seasons... sorry... but some guys after being rewarded like only a handful of players in NBA history aren't going to suddenly figure it out on their own if they don't face real consequences.

Wiggins won't figure things out here. He just won't. We're beyond that.

The only hope is for him to start anew with a new team with new expectations and new pressures and new voices and new fans. There's simply no motivating factor to put in the effort to improve in MN.

Even a new coach/regime isn't enough. They aren't going to bench him either. They might trade him... but you can't just bench a $30M player who's healthy.

Move on from Wiggins. It's time. Take the loss and go from there building around Towns and try to build something during the rest of his contract instead of waiting too long and trying to build it QUICKLY before KAT's extension is up.

[Wolvesfan21]

Of course I would have liked to see us blow out the Suns, but it seems like we always play down to their level...at least we didn't lose this one like the last game against them. And even though we shouldn't have to struggle to beat the Suns, I continue to be impressed with the late game coaching of Saunders (more on this in a Saunders thread)...his management is night and day better compared to his predecessor.

Easy to talk about KAT and Rose, but what about the heart and effectiveness of Taj Gibson? 17 points on only 8 shots, and Rose isn't in position to make the game winner if he doesn't create the turnover...all on his own after Booker had beaten Wiggins.

And speaking of Wig, I found last night's game to be his worst of the season...and there's a lot of competition for that title. 3-14 shooting and 3-7 from the line (including 4 misses late in the game), and absolutely no heart shown the entire game. At one point I thought I saw KAT looking exasperated with him and trying to get him fired up, with Wig just looking dispassionately away. I'll admit he did a few good things on defense, but not nearly enough to make up for other defensive lapses and complete offensive ineffectiveness...shame on Ryan Saunders for giving this almost worthless player 40 minutes last night.

There haven't been any repercussions for Wiggins bad games in nearly 5 seasons... sorry... but some guys after being rewarded like only a handful of players in NBA history aren't going to suddenly figure it out on their own if they don't face real consequences.

Wiggins won't figure things out here. He just won't. We're beyond that.

The only hope is for him to start anew with a new team with new expectations and new pressures and new voices and new fans. There's simply no motivating factor to put in the effort to improve in MN.

Even a new coach/regime isn't enough. They aren't going to bench him either. They might trade him... but you can't just bench a $30M player who's healthy.

Move on from Wiggins. It's time. Take the loss and go from there building around Towns and try to build something during the rest of his contract instead of waiting too long and trying to build it QUICKLY before KAT's extension is up.

No doubt about it, he was coddled and lauded from day 1. Given all the late game shots without providing max effort. Given the max extension without max effort or production. "Hey he is young and scores 24 a game" is what we are told (despite the Wolves bad record and his mediocre at best efficiency). His defense hasn't seen much improvement. His finishing around the rim is pathetic for someone like him. If I were in his shoes I'd be pounding the ball down on everyone all the time. Or at least try to and draw a foul. The dude is a soft ass bitch. Just in it for the money at this point.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Of course I would have liked to see us blow out the Suns, but it seems like we always play down to their level...at least we didn't lose this one like the last game against them. And even though we shouldn't have to struggle to beat the Suns, I continue to be impressed with the late game coaching of Saunders (more on this in a Saunders thread)...his management is night and day better compared to his predecessor.

Easy to talk about KAT and Rose, but what about the heart and effectiveness of Taj Gibson? 17 points on only 8 shots, and Rose isn't in position to make the game winner if he doesn't create the turnover...all on his own after Booker had beaten Wiggins.

And speaking of Wig, I found last night's game to be his worst of the season...and there's a lot of competition for that title. 3-14 shooting and 3-7 from the line (including 4 misses late in the game), and absolutely no heart shown the entire game. At one point I thought I saw KAT looking exasperated with him and trying to get him fired up, with Wig just looking dispassionately away. I'll admit he did a few good things on defense, but not nearly enough to make up for other defensive lapses and complete offensive ineffectiveness...shame on Ryan Saunders for giving this almost worthless player 40 minutes last night.

There haven't been any repercussions for Wiggins bad games in nearly 5 seasons... sorry... but some guys after being rewarded like only a handful of players in NBA history aren't going to suddenly figure it out on their own if they don't face real consequences.

Wiggins won't figure things out here. He just won't. We're beyond that.

The only hope is for him to start anew with a new team with new expectations and new pressures and new voices and new fans. There's simply no motivating factor to put in the effort to improve in MN.

Even a new coach/regime isn't enough. They aren't going to bench him either. They might trade him... but you can't just bench a $30M player who's healthy.

Move on from Wiggins. It's time. Take the loss and go from there building around Towns and try to build something during the rest of his contract instead of waiting too long and trying to build it QUICKLY before KAT's extension is up.

No doubt about it, he was coddled and lauded from day 1. Given all the late game shots without providing max effort. Given the max extension without max effort or production. "Hey he is young and scores 24 a game" is what we are told (despite the Wolves bad record and his mediocre at best efficiency). His defense hasn't seen much improvement. His finishing around the rim is pathetic for someone like him. If I were in his shoes I'd be pounding the ball down on everyone all the time. Or at least try to and draw a foul. The dude is a soft ass bitch. Just in it for the money at this point.

I share WolvesFan, Abe's and Lip's (in his game report) disgust with Wig last night, but I disagree with Abe's conclusion that you can't bench a $30 million player who is healthy. I agree that has been Thibs', and now Ryan's, belief and strategy, but it doesn't have to be that way. Ryan has to put the best 5 players on the court at all times, and money simply can't be a determining factor. Wig has to be limited to 36 minutes on the rare nights when he is engaged (did anyone else notice how exhausted he was in the 4th last night?) and much less than that on nights when he is not. We will have plenty of wing options in RoCo, Rose, Okogie and even Tolliver at times once everyone is healthy, and can't allow his lack of heart to tank another season.

[Lipoli390]

Of course I would have liked to see us blow out the Suns, but it seems like we always play down to their level...at least we didn't lose this one like the last game against them. And even though we shouldn't have to struggle to beat the Suns, I continue to be impressed with the late game coaching of Saunders (more on this in a Saunders thread)...his management is night and day better compared to his predecessor.

Easy to talk about KAT and Rose, but what about the heart and effectiveness of Taj Gibson? 17 points on only 8 shots, and Rose isn't in position to make the game winner if he doesn't create the turnover...all on his own after Booker had beaten Wiggins.

And speaking of Wig, I found last night's game to be his worst of the season...and there's a lot of competition for that title. 3-14 shooting and 3-7 from the line (including 4 misses late in the game), and absolutely no heart shown the entire game. At one point I thought I saw KAT looking exasperated with him and trying to get him fired up, with Wig just looking dispassionately away. I'll admit he did a few good things on defense, but not nearly enough to make up for other defensive lapses and complete offensive ineffectiveness...shame on Ryan Saunders for giving this almost worthless player 40 minutes last night.

There haven't been any repercussions for Wiggins bad games in nearly 5 seasons... sorry... but some guys after being rewarded like only a handful of players in NBA history aren't going to suddenly figure it out on their own if they don't face real consequences.

Wiggins won't figure things out here. He just won't. We're beyond that.

The only hope is for him to start anew with a new team with new expectations and new pressures and new voices and new fans. There's simply no motivating factor to put in the effort to improve in MN.

Even a new coach/regime isn't enough. They aren't going to bench him either. They might trade him... but you can't just bench a $30M player who's healthy.

Move on from Wiggins. It's time. Take the loss and go from there building around Towns and try to build something during the rest of his contract instead of waiting too long and trying to build it QUICKLY before KAT's extension is up.

No doubt about it, he was coddled and lauded from day 1. Given all the late game shots without providing max effort. Given the max extension without max effort or production. "Hey he is young and scores 24 a game" is what we are told (despite the Wolves bad record and his mediocre at best efficiency). His defense hasn't seen much improvement. His finishing around the rim is pathetic for someone like him. If I were in his shoes I'd be pounding the ball down on everyone all the time. Or at least try to and draw a foul. The dude is a soft ass bitch. Just in it for the money at this point.

I share WolvesFan, Abe's and Lip's (in his game report) disgust with Wig last night, but I disagree with Abe's conclusion that you can't bench a $30 million player who is healthy. I agree that has been Thibs', and now Ryan's, belief and strategy, but it doesn't have to be that way. Ryan has to put the best 5 players on the court at all times, and money simply can't be a determining factor. Wig has to be limited to 36 minutes on the rare nights when he is engaged (did anyone else notice how exhausted he was in the 4th last night?) and much less than that on nights when he is not. We will have plenty of wing options in RoCo, Rose, Okogie and even Tolliver at times once everyone is healthy, and can't allow his lack of heart to tank another season.

I'd be fine with benching Wiggins. But I don't think repercussions of any kind would have made a difference at any point in his career. He came out of college surrounded by doubts about his motor and his handle. He has simply confirmed those doubts in his 4.5 seasons with the Wolves. If you're not self-driven when you get to the NBA at 19 or 20 years old, no one from the outside is going to instill that drive in you. If you're not a good ballhander by the time you're 19 years old, you're not going to improve that basic motor skill much going forward. The lesson with Wiggins doesn't lie in what various Wolves' coaches should have done to motivate or improve him. The lesson is in how Wolves' front office personnel should make future draft decisions. The fundamental lesson is this:

1. You don't draft players with questions about their motor or drive, but instead look for players known for their drive and intensity.

2. You don't draft guards or wings with questionable handles. Ballhandling is something that develops early in life. With rare exception, it's either there or isn't by age 19 with only limited room for improvement. Other things like shooting and decision-making can improve a lot.

Wiggins had both of these red flags attached to him coming out of college. Yet, the Cavs and Wolves (among others I'm sure) were seduced by Andrew's incredible athleticism and physical profile (great length for a wing). As we look ahead to next June's draft, I know I'm going to pay even more attention to these two red flags in formulating my draft board. I just hope the Wolves front office does the same.

In the meantime, we can only hope that some team remains seduced by Andrew's "potential" to the point where they will at least take him off our hands in exchange for a shorter contract without requiring us to give up a future 1st round pick, Okogie, Tyus or Saric.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Of course I would have liked to see us blow out the Suns, but it seems like we always play down to their level...at least we didn't lose this one like the last game against them. And even though we shouldn't have to struggle to beat the Suns, I continue to be impressed with the late game coaching of Saunders (more on this in a Saunders thread)...his management is night and day better compared to his predecessor.

Easy to talk about KAT and Rose, but what about the heart and effectiveness of Taj Gibson? 17 points on only 8 shots, and Rose isn't in position to make the game winner if he doesn't create the turnover...all on his own after Booker had beaten Wiggins.

And speaking of Wig, I found last night's game to be his worst of the season...and there's a lot of competition for that title. 3-14 shooting and 3-7 from the line (including 4 misses late in the game), and absolutely no heart shown the entire game. At one point I thought I saw KAT looking exasperated with him and trying to get him fired up, with Wig just looking dispassionately away. I'll admit he did a few good things on defense, but not nearly enough to make up for other defensive lapses and complete offensive ineffectiveness...shame on Ryan Saunders for giving this almost worthless player 40 minutes last night.

There haven't been any repercussions for Wiggins bad games in nearly 5 seasons... sorry... but some guys after being rewarded like only a handful of players in NBA history aren't going to suddenly figure it out on their own if they don't face real consequences.

Wiggins won't figure things out here. He just won't. We're beyond that.

The only hope is for him to start anew with a new team with new expectations and new pressures and new voices and new fans. There's simply no motivating factor to put in the effort to improve in MN.

Even a new coach/regime isn't enough. They aren't going to bench him either. They might trade him... but you can't just bench a $30M player who's healthy.

Move on from Wiggins. It's time. Take the loss and go from there building around Towns and try to build something during the rest of his contract instead of waiting too long and trying to build it QUICKLY before KAT's extension is up.

No doubt about it, he was coddled and lauded from day 1. Given all the late game shots without providing max effort. Given the max extension without max effort or production. "Hey he is young and scores 24 a game" is what we are told (despite the Wolves bad record and his mediocre at best efficiency). His defense hasn't seen much improvement. His finishing around the rim is pathetic for someone like him. If I were in his shoes I'd be pounding the ball down on everyone all the time. Or at least try to and draw a foul. The dude is a soft ass bitch. Just in it for the money at this point.

I share WolvesFan, Abe's and Lip's (in his game report) disgust with Wig last night, but I disagree with Abe's conclusion that you can't bench a $30 million player who is healthy. I agree that has been Thibs', and now Ryan's, belief and strategy, but it doesn't have to be that way. Ryan has to put the best 5 players on the court at all times, and money simply can't be a determining factor. Wig has to be limited to 36 minutes on the rare nights when he is engaged (did anyone else notice how exhausted he was in the 4th last night?) and much less than that on nights when he is not. We will have plenty of wing options in RoCo, Rose, Okogie and even Tolliver at times once everyone is healthy, and can't allow his lack of heart to tank another season.

I'd be fine with benching Wiggins. But I don't think repercussions of any kind would have made a difference at any point in his career. He came out of college surrounded by doubts about his motor and his handle. He has simply confirmed those doubts in his 4.5 seasons with the Wolves. If you're not self-driven when you get to the NBA at 19 or 20 years old, no one from the outside is going to instill that drive in you. If you're not a good ballhander by the time you're 19 years old, you're not going to improve that basic motor skill much going forward. The lesson with Wiggins doesn't lie in what various Wolves' coaches should have done to motivate or improve him. The lesson is in how Wolves' front office personnel should make future draft decisions. The fundamental lesson is this:

1. You don't draft players with questions about their motor or drive, but instead look for players known for their drive and intensity.

2. You don't draft guards or wings with questionable handles. Ballhandling is something that develops early in life. With rare exception, it's either there or isn't by age 19 with only limited room for improvement. Other things like shooting and decision-making can improve a lot.

Wiggins had both of these red flags attached to him coming out of college. Yet, the Cavs and Wolves (among others I'm sure) were seduced by Andrew's incredible athleticism and physical profile (great length for a wing). As we look ahead to next June's draft, I know I'm going to pay even more attention to these two red flags in formulating my draft board. I just hope the Wolves front office does the same.

In the meantime, we can only hope that some team remains seduced by Andrew's "potential" to the point where they will at least take him off our hands in exchange for a shorter contract without requiring us to give up a future 1st round pick, Okogie, Tyus or Saric.

Lip, I'm not suggesting benching Wig as motivational, but rather because he isn't helping enough. On nights like last night where he is so lethargic, I'm certain Ryan can find better options than giving him 40 minutes. And if it also proved to be motivational (and I don't think it will be) so much the better.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I'm not saying you "can't" bench him as much as they "won't" bench him.

It would be $30M of sunk cost on the bench and you'd be placing a huge red flag on him, basically telling every other team that you think Okogie (or whoever) >>> Wiggins.

I'd LOVE to see it happen. I doubt it will.

[Lipoli390]

Of course I would have liked to see us blow out the Suns, but it seems like we always play down to their level...at least we didn't lose this one like the last game against them. And even though we shouldn't have to struggle to beat the Suns, I continue to be impressed with the late game coaching of Saunders (more on this in a Saunders thread)...his management is night and day better compared to his predecessor.

Easy to talk about KAT and Rose, but what about the heart and effectiveness of Taj Gibson? 17 points on only 8 shots, and Rose isn't in position to make the game winner if he doesn't create the turnover...all on his own after Booker had beaten Wiggins.

And speaking of Wig, I found last night's game to be his worst of the season...and there's a lot of competition for that title. 3-14 shooting and 3-7 from the line (including 4 misses late in the game), and absolutely no heart shown the entire game. At one point I thought I saw KAT looking exasperated with him and trying to get him fired up, with Wig just looking dispassionately away. I'll admit he did a few good things on defense, but not nearly enough to make up for other defensive lapses and complete offensive ineffectiveness...shame on Ryan Saunders for giving this almost worthless player 40 minutes last night.

There haven't been any repercussions for Wiggins bad games in nearly 5 seasons... sorry... but some guys after being rewarded like only a handful of players in NBA history aren't going to suddenly figure it out on their own if they don't face real consequences.

Wiggins won't figure things out here. He just won't. We're beyond that.

The only hope is for him to start anew with a new team with new expectations and new pressures and new voices and new fans. There's simply no motivating factor to put in the effort to improve in MN.

Even a new coach/regime isn't enough. They aren't going to bench him either. They might trade him... but you can't just bench a $30M player who's healthy.

Move on from Wiggins. It's time. Take the loss and go from there building around Towns and try to build something during the rest of his contract instead of waiting too long and trying to build it QUICKLY before KAT's extension is up.

No doubt about it, he was coddled and lauded from day 1. Given all the late game shots without providing max effort. Given the max extension without max effort or production. "Hey he is young and scores 24 a game" is what we are told (despite the Wolves bad record and his mediocre at best efficiency). His defense hasn't seen much improvement. His finishing around the rim is pathetic for someone like him. If I were in his shoes I'd be pounding the ball down on everyone all the time. Or at least try to and draw a foul. The dude is a soft ass bitch. Just in it for the money at this point.

I share WolvesFan, Abe's and Lip's (in his game report) disgust with Wig last night, but I disagree with Abe's conclusion that you can't bench a $30 million player who is healthy. I agree that has been Thibs', and now Ryan's, belief and strategy, but it doesn't have to be that way. Ryan has to put the best 5 players on the court at all times, and money simply can't be a determining factor. Wig has to be limited to 36 minutes on the rare nights when he is engaged (did anyone else notice how exhausted he was in the 4th last night?) and much less than that on nights when he is not. We will have plenty of wing options in RoCo, Rose, Okogie and even Tolliver at times once everyone is healthy, and can't allow his lack of heart to tank another season.

I'd be fine with benching Wiggins. But I don't think repercussions of any kind would have made a difference at any point in his career. He came out of college surrounded by doubts about his motor and his handle. He has simply confirmed those doubts in his 4.5 seasons with the Wolves. If you're not self-driven when you get to the NBA at 19 or 20 years old, no one from the outside is going to instill that drive in you. If you're not a good ballhander by the time you're 19 years old, you're not going to improve that basic motor skill much going forward. The lesson with Wiggins doesn't lie in what various Wolves' coaches should have done to motivate or improve him. The lesson is in how Wolves' front office personnel should make future draft decisions. The fundamental lesson is this:

1. You don't draft players with questions about their motor or drive, but instead look for players known for their drive and intensity.

2. You don't draft guards or wings with questionable handles. Ballhandling is something that develops early in life. With rare exception, it's either there or isn't by age 19 with only limited room for improvement. Other things like shooting and decision-making can improve a lot.

Wiggins had both of these red flags attached to him coming out of college. Yet, the Cavs and Wolves (among others I'm sure) were seduced by Andrew's incredible athleticism and physical profile (great length for a wing). As we look ahead to next June's draft, I know I'm going to pay even more attention to these two red flags in formulating my draft board. I just hope the Wolves front office does the same.

In the meantime, we can only hope that some team remains seduced by Andrew's "potential" to the point where they will at least take him off our hands in exchange for a shorter contract without requiring us to give up a future 1st round pick, Okogie, Tyus or Saric.

Lip, I'm not suggesting benching Wig as motivational, but rather because he isn't helping enough. On nights like last night where he is so lethargic, I'm certain Ryan can find better options than giving him 40 minutes. And if it also proved to be motivational (and I don't think it will be) so much the better.

LST - I was responding to Abe's point about holding Wiggins accountable. I understand and agree with your reason for benching Wiggins. But Abe makes a good point about further damaging what remains of Wiggins' trade value. At this point, in my view, you play Wiggins 30-35 minutes a game every game until you trade him.

[thedoper]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

[AbeVigodaLive]

There's plenty of basketball reasons why Wiggins doesn't get benched and has lead the team in minutes at various points in his time here. He shut down the Suns best player last night, especially in the 4th when we needed it most. His offense can be gross, but you need good man defenders in this league too. Calling him lethargic when he was chasing Booker around screens all night and jumping out to switch on 3 point shooters doesn't seem like a complete analysis of his game last night.

Advanced stats still show that Andrew Wiggins remains a negative on the defensive end, too.