CoolBreeze's 2 Things I Didn't Like Tonight Plus 1

[Monster]

L

Flip certainly believed in Payne. So maybe we've all been way to harsh in our critiques of Payne. Perhaps all he needed was a top notch coaching staff and more time. Just one game, but what a lift it would be if Payne could consistently give us games like tonight's, reminiscent of his impressive college career at MSU.

I'm probably Payne's biggest supporter on this board, Lip, because I thought he was such a do-everything guy at MSU...but even I have been enormously unhappy with his play. Last night was completely different...he didn't have any "Payne moments". Maybe Thibs can get more out of him than Flip/Sam could, but I think we all look at that with skepticism...after all, he really only saw the court last night because 3 guys were out. But his length at PF can be game changing if he can play under control, so I'm still hopeful.

Speaking of length, that was the highlight last night. There were times (particularly when Mosgov was out) that we were taller than the Lakers at every position, and that really makes a difference. Most of us have had the experience of playing against a longer opponent, and we know how frustrating it can be...on both ends of the court. Wig especially looked like a wild animal that had just been let out of his cage...you could tell he really savored the opportunity to play most of the game at SG. The Wolves lack bulk and what will hurt us some nights. But if Thibs can be confident in putting longer lineups out there, I think that will create some matchups that we can really exploit. My optimism level is back after last night.

Only two disappointments last night: KAT's tendency to force things (he should not have taken more shots than Wig last night) and the crowd. The good news about KAT is that he plays hard, but sometimes I think he needs to take a deep breath and dial it back a bit...his passing skills are so good I think he can easily be a 5 APG guy if he looks to pass first. Finally, I was really disappointed with the Sunday night crowd...almost nobody upstairs and lots of empty seats downstairs. Such a poor crowd for a 6pm game against the Lakers (who still draw because of the mystique) shows this town doesn't believe in this team yet. A few more games like last night will turn that around quickly.

Lip Payne has deserved the harsh critiques. Payne last night looked like the guy we saw earlier in the season last year where he looked like a reasonably useful bench player. Its one game and he played under control. It was obviously interesting that he played over Jordon Hill, but in theory Payne is more skilled than Hill so If he is doing what he is supposed to do in practice than sure get him out there. people keep forgetting that thibs and his staff has developed players. If they can get something out of Payne that would be something.

[Monster]

Wow, this is moving fast. Lavine scores 37 a couple games again and is playing beautifully. Yea he still has strides to make in defense but now everyone wants him coming off the bench or moved to make room for Wig at the 2. It's one game. Btw, Wig was scoring pretty well prior to last game and efficiently also.

I know I've been quick to make judgements, most recently with Dunn. But cmon, Zach and Wig are a great pairing. Talk about jumping to conclusion on thier ability to play defense together. It's been 6-7 games under a new coach for a pair of 20-21 year olds.

I think it's more spit balling versus torches and pitchforks demanding a change.

The fact is we suck defensively and are especially vulnerable to teams that are bigger and stronger. We get pushed around easily. It's easy to see why someone might speculate on the notion of moving LaVine to the bench in order to make our starting lineup bigger and stronger.

I doubt Thibs makes any immediate changes, nor should he. I agree it's too early, but speculation is what we do here....

I think Belly won't be mobile enough to defend the 3 game in game out. Having aid that he is the closest thing to the combo forward this team needs going forward. Heck a Dante Cunningham would be fantastic to have on the roster. The good news is those types of guys are easy to find. To me if you put Lavine off the bench some games and put Belly (or at some point another player) at SF I sell Lavine on being a the next Manu type a HOF player that came off the bench alot for the good of the team and won championships because of it. Do I think it will happen? IDK its something I have thought about but the reality is there isn't a player to push Zach to the bench right now. If there is...its gonna be a good problem to have and this team is likely gonna be winning alot of games.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

Wow, this is moving fast. Lavine scores 37 a couple games again and is playing beautifully. Yea he still has strides to make in defense but now everyone wants him coming off the bench or moved to make room for Wig at the 2. It's one game. Btw, Wig was scoring pretty well prior to last game and efficiently also.

I know I've been quick to make judgements, most recently with Dunn. But cmon, Zach and Wig are a great pairing. Talk about jumping to conclusion on thier ability to play defense together. It's been 6-7 games under a new coach for a pair of 20-21 year olds.

I can't speak for others, Duke, but I've been calling for Thibs to move Wig to SG since summer. Maybe someday he will bulk up sufficiently to allow hi to at least be a mediocre rebounder for a SF, but his rebounding is substandard now. And his length makes him so much more effective on defense at the 3, whereas sometimes he can be overpowered at SF. His defense on Nick Young last night was far superior to anything he has done all season...Young was averaging close to 19 PPG his previous 5 games, but Wig totally frustrated him and held him to 9.

On the other hand, Zach has been a disaster on defense...worse than last year, in my opinion. The numbers aren't kind to him. In his 162 minutes on the court this season, the Wolves have yielded 109 points per 100 possessions. In the 78 minutes he has sat (prior to last night, which would have made these numbers even more extreme), we have given up only 98 points per 100 possessions. That's a very large differential, and proves what my eyes tell me...that Zach is not developing as a team defensive player. And yet he continues to improve offensively, and is a critical piece in our future. It's interesting to me that the non-Wolves player he is closest to is Jamal Crawford...another guy who can light it up offensively but has never developed enough defensively to be considered a 2-way player.

So moving Wig to the 2 helps in two ways...it puts Wig in a position much more suited to him physically, and it instantly provides a big offensive spark to our bench while allowing Zach to defend reserves rather than starters. Thibs was effusive in his praise for the big starting lineup last night, so I'll be surprised if he moves away from it without trying it again,

[Duke13]

I don't think it's that's simple. KAT had been a madador on defensive all year doesn't mean I'm willing to give up on him being a positive defensive player. I know you've talked a lot about Wig's best postition is at the two. I think Zack's potential is 10 fold higher than that of Crawford. You're talking about the teams best shooter by far in Lavine, even with Wig's nice start beyond the arc.

I don't mess with a player of Zack's caliber based on one game. I personally see Lavines ceiling on par with Wig's so I realize I might not be the most objective. I would be more in flavor of playing Zack, Wig and Belly stretches to see how that works pending match ups. You have 3 guys who can initiate offense in those 3. In 4th quarter Rubio doesn't have the ball in his hands much anyway, which nullifies any value he has.

[Duke13]

And I don't disagree with you LST, his best position might be at the 2. I don't see Tibs making a move like moving Lavine to the bench this year. He's proven he's taking the long term approach with this. He will tinker with lineups. he's not putting wins ahead of evaluating everything thoroughly. I'm sure he will tinker with different lineups, but he can do that without changing the starting lineup.

[Lipoli390]

I'm with Duke on this although I acknowledge the team defensive numbers associated with Zach. So if it were up to me, I'd reinsert Zach into the starting lineup as our SG as soon as he's healthy and stick with it at least for the first half of this season. As for what Thibs will do, I'm not sure. I can see him going with going with last night's starting lineup the rest of the season. I could also him going back to our prior starting lineup with Zach at SG once Zach is healthy. Another possibility would be Thibs going with Zach as our starting SG some games and Wiggins in other games depending on matchups. I'd be OK with that approach. It will be interesting to see what Thibs does and what results flow from his decision.

[Coolbreeze44]

Here is a nice article on Andrew by Ratke:

http://www.nba.com/timberwolves/andrew-wiggins-just-scratching-surface

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Wiggins is only 9th in points per game!? Normally 26 PPG is good enough to get you in the top 5. And oh, what a shock, 7 of the other 8 guys ahead of him are in the Western Conference and almost all have a TS% of 60% or more.

It's insane the level of offensive output some of these guys are putting out right now - Harden, Westbrook, DeRozan, Lillard, Davis.

[Mstermisty [enjin:6864008]]

I was against Wiggs at the 2 last season, but after seeing his improvement this year at ball handling and especially 3 point shooting, now it seems like a viable option. And since Zach is still only 21, while meanwhile Belly is in his physical prime at 28, you have to consider switching Zach and Belly's roles at least this season. The main question is this: can Belly duplicate or at least give us a lesser version, consistently, of what he did last night? One great game is meaningless if he starts next game and disappears.

I'd give the same starting lineup another look on Tuesday, and maybe beyond if the team thrives. But if Zach is ready and starts again I'm good with that too. I'm putting my trust in Thibs. He already got more out of Payne than I would have ever guessed.

[Monster]

I was against Wiggs at the 2 last season, but after seeing his improvement this year at ball handling and especially 3 point shooting, now it seems like a viable option. And since Zach is still only 21, while meanwhile Belly is in his physical prime at 28, you have to consider switching Zach and Belly's roles at least this season. The main question is this: can Belly duplicate or at least give us a lesser version, consistently, of what he did last night? One great game is meaningless if he starts next game and disappears.

I'd give the same starting lineup another look on Tuesday, and maybe beyond if the team thrives. But if Zach is ready and starts again I'm good with that too. I'm putting my trust in Thibs. He already got more out of Payne than I would have ever guessed.

Belly had a nice matchup for this game playing an old looking Deng and a rookie in Ingram that makes Belly look like fat Belly from last year. Remember back when Dunn was so awesome the first few quarters starting for Rubio....? They could probably try that lineup against the Hornets and see what happens as Belly would have a few different guys he may be able to guard. He played one really good game Lavine has played quite a few good games. I am a big fan of Belly but let's slow down this train a little here. I think playing him at SF and using Lavine off the bench could make sense based on some matchups. Heck I thought Thibs was pulling some genius move when I started watched the Lakers game because I didn't know Lavine was out. Lavine playing against those Lakers bench guard would have made a ton of sense with Belly playing Deng as a starter. Let's give Lavine credit for playing well enough to be a starter. Wiggins at the 2 would be awesome but as I said in another post the Wolves need a SF to emerge. Maybe Belly plays well enough to do that at least in certain matchups. He has a lot to prove to be that guy that's reality.