Adding a wing

[Coolbreeze44]

Yes, we need to be a better 3-point shooting team, but it seems to me that if we're ranked 10th in offensive efficiency and 27th in defensive efficiency then the priority for improvement is pretty obvious.

That being said, I really like the idea of going hard after Joe Ingles. He seems to be "the best of all worlds" option: He's a big wing that can start at SF. He's unselfish, defends, has above average handles, and is a very good 3-point shooter, even though it's not in mega-volume.

It seems like Utah is going to have their hands full this offseason. They need to try to retain Gordon Hayward, and if they don't, they need to find a scorer on the open market to help backfill him. They will also likely lose George Hill to free agency unless they give him a big pay day. And again, if he leaves, is Exum really they answer? They may need to go spend big money on a free agent PG or re-up Hill for big money.

So with all of that, how high are they willing to go to retain Ingles? And what other teams might target him?

RFAs are so tricky with the cap hold and the waiting period for the other team to respond. Its also rare to see RFAs change teams. Over the past 6 seasons, here's a list of RFA's that have switched teams (per spotrac):

2016: Dellavedova, Troy Daniels, Boban Marjanovic and Christian Wood.

2015: Kyle O'Quinn, Derrick Williams

2014: Chandler Parsons

2013: Tyreke Evans, Chris Copeland, Jeff Ayres

2012: Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin, Landry Fields, Greg Stiemsma, Donte Green

2011: Dante Cunningham, Derrick Brown, Chris Johnson

That's it. It just doesn't happen much, specifically with high profile players and, really, even mid-tier guys. So while the idea of signing an RFA seems like a good idea, they seem to rarely change teams. Plus, more times than not, there is an overpay factor.

As for Ingles, I'll pass on a guy who is coming off a career year at 29 years old. I also think his defense is overrated a bit as he's covered up nicely by Gobert on the inside.

Agreed on the difficulty of landing an RFA, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It's like JaMychal Green with Memphis. If Thibs really likes one of these RFAs, make a strong bid and force Memphis or Utah to match, which potentially pinches their wallet in trying to re-sign another guy or beefing up their roster elsewhere.

Yes, it's not going to be easy for some of these teams to match, and if they do it's going to hurt. We can certainly make it interesting, particularly with Memphis.

[WildWolf2813]

Wings are gonna be tough to convince to come here because the opportunity just isn't there. When Thibs is giving guys like Wiggins and Laving 37-38 minutes a game, where will the playing time come from (especially if Dunn is better off at SG)?


With that said, if Thibs is so hung up on shooting now, it looks like he's having regrets over not picking Hield.

[TeamRicky [enjin:6648771]]

Yes, we need to be a better 3-point shooting team, but it seems to me that if we're ranked 10th in offensive efficiency and 27th in defensive efficiency then the priority for improvement is pretty obvious.

That being said, I really like the idea of going hard after Joe Ingles. He seems to be "the best of all worlds" option: He's a big wing that can start at SF. He's unselfish, defends, has above average handles, and is a very good 3-point shooter, even though it's not in mega-volume.

It seems like Utah is going to have their hands full this offseason. They need to try to retain Gordon Hayward, and if they don't, they need to find a scorer on the open market to help backfill him. They will also likely lose George Hill to free agency unless they give him a big pay day. And again, if he leaves, is Exum really they answer? They may need to go spend big money on a free agent PG or re-up Hill for big money.

So with all of that, how high are they willing to go to retain Ingles? And what other teams might target him?

RFAs are so tricky with the cap hold and the waiting period for the other team to respond. Its also rare to see RFAs change teams. Over the past 6 seasons, here's a list of RFA's that have switched teams (per spotrac):

2016: Dellavedova, Troy Daniels, Boban Marjanovic and Christian Wood.

2015: Kyle O'Quinn, Derrick Williams

2014: Chandler Parsons

2013: Tyreke Evans, Chris Copeland, Jeff Ayres

2012: Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin, Landry Fields, Greg Stiemsma, Donte Green

2011: Dante Cunningham, Derrick Brown, Chris Johnson

That's it. It just doesn't happen much, specifically with high profile players and, really, even mid-tier guys. So while the idea of signing an RFA seems like a good idea, they seem to rarely change teams. Plus, more times than not, there is an overpay factor.

As for Ingles, I'll pass on a guy who is coming off a career year at 29 years old. I also think his defense is overrated a bit as he's covered up nicely by Gobert on the inside.

Agreed on the difficulty of landing an RFA, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It's like JaMychal Green with Memphis. If Thibs really likes one of these RFAs, make a strong bid and force Memphis or Utah to match, which potentially pinches their wallet in trying to re-sign another guy or beefing up their roster elsewhere.

Yes, it's not going to be easy for some of these teams to match, and if they do it's going to hurt. We can certainly make it interesting, particularly with Memphis.

Agree that its probably not worth going after any RFA. Any good player and even some average ones will get matched. If I had to pick one RFA to bid on, it would be Otto Porter--he's improved greatly every year and he's only 24 and you can't really overpay for him.

[Lipoli390]

I hesitant about Dudley because Phoenix could only find 20 mins for him. I just don't see how we're going to squeeze out some more value out of him when he couldn't find a meaningful role on a team that had less wings than we do. I assume he is going downhill in his athleticism at this point in his career. If the solution for this team is just a back up wing then lets go for it. I just think we need more.

But I don't really think we need another "full-time" wing. We need a bigger wing that can start halves OR play meaningful minutes off the bench, but to me it looks like 20-25 MPG once LaVine is back at full strength. That's why Tucker, Thabo, Dudley, Ingles, Roberson, and Simmons all seem like reasonable options (some better than others). But Wiggins and LaVine probably play the majority of most 4th quarters together.

Power Forward is a little different. I can see the need for a 30+ MPG PF like Milsap, Ibaka, or JaMychal Green. I'm just not sure we're going to be able to land one of those guys.

Everything I have read is Dudley is all in on being a mentor there and I can't imagine they are desperately trying to open up cap space to sign a FA.

I've heard the same thing, Monster. I've always like Dudley as a very good three-point shooter with size. But I don't see him leaving Phoenix so I'm not bothering to put him on my list of possibles.

[kekgeek]

Yes, we need to be a better 3-point shooting team, but it seems to me that if we're ranked 10th in offensive efficiency and 27th in defensive efficiency then the priority for improvement is pretty obvious.

That being said, I really like the idea of going hard after Joe Ingles. He seems to be "the best of all worlds" option: He's a big wing that can start at SF. He's unselfish, defends, has above average handles, and is a very good 3-point shooter, even though it's not in mega-volume.

It seems like Utah is going to have their hands full this offseason. They need to try to retain Gordon Hayward, and if they don't, they need to find a scorer on the open market to help backfill him. They will also likely lose George Hill to free agency unless they give him a big pay day. And again, if he leaves, is Exum really they answer? They may need to go spend big money on a free agent PG or re-up Hill for big money.

So with all of that, how high are they willing to go to retain Ingles? And what other teams might target him?

RFAs are so tricky with the cap hold and the waiting period for the other team to respond. Its also rare to see RFAs change teams. Over the past 6 seasons, here's a list of RFA's that have switched teams (per spotrac):

2016: Dellavedova, Troy Daniels, Boban Marjanovic and Christian Wood.

2015: Kyle O'Quinn, Derrick Williams

2014: Chandler Parsons

2013: Tyreke Evans, Chris Copeland, Jeff Ayres

2012: Omer Asik, Jeremy Lin, Landry Fields, Greg Stiemsma, Donte Green

2011: Dante Cunningham, Derrick Brown, Chris Johnson

That's it. It just doesn't happen much, specifically with high profile players and, really, even mid-tier guys. So while the idea of signing an RFA seems like a good idea, they seem to rarely change teams. Plus, more times than not, there is an overpay factor.

As for Ingles, I'll pass on a guy who is coming off a career year at 29 years old. I also think his defense is overrated a bit as he's covered up nicely by Gobert on the inside.

Agreed on the difficulty of landing an RFA, but it doesn't mean we shouldn't try. It's like JaMychal Green with Memphis. If Thibs really likes one of these RFAs, make a strong bid and force Memphis or Utah to match, which potentially pinches their wallet in trying to re-sign another guy or beefing up their roster elsewhere.

Yes, it's not going to be easy for some of these teams to match, and if they do it's going to hurt. We can certainly make it interesting, particularly with Memphis.

Agree that its probably not worth going after any RFA. Any good player and even some average ones will get matched. If I had to pick one RFA to bid on, it would be Otto Porter--he's improved greatly every year and he's only 24 and you can't really overpay for him.

Like monster said it is different this year only having to wait to days instead of 3. Can help other teams. We should go after the likes of ingles, green because if they aren't matched they help our team and if they do match we capped out the Grizzlies and/or the jazz.

Also otto porter and KCP are not max type players and if matched they screw over east teams and that does not help us at all

[Lipoli390]

Contending teams pickup small pieces like Rush and Aldrich to fill small minutes from time to time. Those teams are contenders with or without them. The Wolves need to pick up actual difference makers to help get them to the playoffs. A 31 win team bargain shopping for end of the benchers will net them next to nothing in the win column. Step up and make a move that actually improves them in the present and worry about the future later.

The improvement of this team needs to come from the development of KAT, Wiggins and LaVine not depend on the signing of big name a FA. Not yet anyway.

It will need help from free agents in their rotation, because 3 years in, you can question whether Wiggins has actually improved. You have to have reinforcements in case not every player gets better.

I agree with Matt that the Wolves will ultimately rise and fall on the success or failure of their young core. But I agree with Wild that you can't necessarily count on all our young talent reaching their potential knowing that after 2-3 seasons they haven't yet produced more than 31 wins. So acquiring a different-maker or potential difference maker is something the Wolves should pursue. However, the player has to be young enough to help the team long term when at least one or two of our young guns reach their prime because no matter who we acquire this summer he won't lead us to the promised land unless at least one or two of our young core eventually live up to their billing. And we shouldn't be giving up any meaningful talent to get the difference maker we need because we're not good or deep enough enough to get better with some sort of net return. That means free agency or the draft should be the means by which we acquire an impact player or potential impact player.

I just don't see us landing a Millsap type player as a free agent. So I think we'll have to settle for a Thabo, Tucker, or Redick by outbidding other teams. In my view, we'll have to rely on the draft to add a big time talent who can become a big time player by his second or third season. That's my challenge to the Wolves front office. Yes, we don't have a top 3 pick. But I expect this front office to turn the 7th pick into a Steph Curry, Klay Thompson, Draymond Green, Damian Lillard, C.J McCollum, Kauwai Leonard, Manu, Parker, D'Andre Jordan, Paul Pierce, Paul George, etc. I don't think any of those players were picked higher than #7 and many were picked much lower than #7. Yes, I know it's not easy to hit on a pick, especially if not a top two or three pick. But the best franchises do. The Wolves may have hit paydirt with Zach LaVine, but that remains to be seen. I think it's more than fair to expect the Wolves to hit on an eventual all-star or borderline all-star in this year's draft. If we want our team to be one of the best, we need a front office to match. A mediocre front office will ultimately result in a mediocre team at best.

[Monster]

Those young Wolves what a bunch of chumps. They only produced 31 wins with a roster with 1 guy over 30, 2 backup PGs that started the year with 37 NBA games of experience between them. Their top backup big had 60 NBA games under his belt. The 2nd most experienced player on their roster played in 7 games 47 minutes total. Every single Wolf that had been on the team longer than a year had played for a new coach each of the last 4 seasons of they have been here that long. I get it there is rational reason to be skeptical of how mush these guys can improve especially with Lavine retiring from injury. It's worth mentioning it's not like these guys have had some uber smooth progression the last however many years they have been here. People forget some of these guys lost Flip and were likely pretty close to him. They had to persevere through that. That shouldn't be completely lost in the shuffle. I'm not letting these guys off the hook (or even Thibs) but maybe let's give them a little more benefit of the doubt or some more perspective.

[Lipoli390]

Those young Wolves what a bunch of chumps. They only produced 31 wins with a roster with 1 guy over 30, 2 backup PGs that started the year with 37 NBA games of experience between them. Their top backup big had 60 NBA games under his belt. The 2nd most experienced player on their roster played in 7 games 47 minutes total. Every single Wolf that had been on the team longer than a year had played for a new coach each of the last 4 seasons of they have been here that long. I get it there is rational reason to be skeptical of how mush these guys can improve especially with Lavine retiring from injury. It's worth mentioning it's not like these guys have had some uber smooth progression the last however many years they have been here. People forget some of these guys lost Flip and were likely pretty close to him. They had to persevere through that. That shouldn't be completely lost in the shuffle. I'm not letting these guys off the hook (or even Thibs) but maybe let's give them a little more benefit of the doubt or some more perspective.

Monster -- I think you way overreacted to my post. Nothing in my post suggested our young guys are a bunch of chumps or even that they're unlikely to become elite players. You acknowledge that there's room for skepticism based on what we've seen so far. That's all I was saying. I won't speak for Wild, but I was simply pointing to the well-founded uncertainty surrounding the development of our young core as a premise for continuing to pursue elite talent. One successful NBA executive years ago (I think was Danny Ainge) said he's "in the talent acquisition business." I'm still very optimistic about the ultimate development of KAT and reasonably optimistic about the development of Wiggins and LaVine, provided that Zach fully recovers from his ACL tear. But any 31-win team should continue to pursue high-end talent regardless of how much confidence that team has in the potential of its most promising young players. That's just common sense as a hedge against the unknown -- failure ot develop, deciding to go elsewhere or injury.

[Monster]

Those young Wolves what a bunch of chumps. They only produced 31 wins with a roster with 1 guy over 30, 2 backup PGs that started the year with 37 NBA games of experience between them. Their top backup big had 60 NBA games under his belt. The 2nd most experienced player on their roster played in 7 games 47 minutes total. Every single Wolf that had been on the team longer than a year had played for a new coach each of the last 4 seasons of they have been here that long. I get it there is rational reason to be skeptical of how mush these guys can improve especially with Lavine retiring from injury. It's worth mentioning it's not like these guys have had some uber smooth progression the last however many years they have been here. People forget some of these guys lost Flip and were likely pretty close to him. They had to persevere through that. That shouldn't be completely lost in the shuffle. I'm not letting these guys off the hook (or even Thibs) but maybe let's give them a little more benefit of the doubt or some more perspective.

Monster -- I think you way overreacted to my post. Nothing in my post suggested our young guys are a bunch of chumps or even that they're unlikely to become elite players. You acknowledge that there's room for skepticism based on what we've seen so far. That's all I was saying. I won't speak for Wild, but I was simply pointing to the well-founded uncertainty surrounding the development of our young core as a premise for continuing to pursue elite talent. One successful NBA executive years ago (I think was Danny Ainge) said he's "in the talent acquisition business." I'm still very optimistic about the ultimate development of KAT and reasonably optimistic about the development of Wiggins and LaVine, provided that Zach fully recovers from his ACL tear. But any 31-win team should continue to pursue high-end talent regardless of how much confidence that team has in the potential of its most promising young players. That's just common sense as a hedge against the unknown -- failure ot develop, deciding to go elsewhere or injury.

Lip I wasn't reacting to just your post. There are other posts in this thread plus the general feeling that because this team didn't arrive last year that this core isn't good enough etc. Where in my post did I say not to add more talent to the roster? That certainly wasn't my intention. My whole point was realize this team hasn't been all together built up and ready to roll it's still in process of being built up. I'm just saying this roster is far from a finished product but it feels like because they didn't go for 40 wins or whatever for example Wiggins isn't going to be good enough. I think a lot of people forget where this team is at in its development. I think next year there will be a decent jump regardless of the acquisitions (they need to add some depth obviously) because of the talent on the roster and the coaching staff being together from 1 season to the next.

Based on your posts I don't think we will disagree with much based on what the Wolves should do with the offseason. Personally based on the players that will be available and what salary guys are going to get I would keep building not overspend for a guy that is just better than what we have now. Keep building your roster and develop the players you have. Don't stop look to adding young talent. Based on Thibs comments at his season conclusion press conference they may be doing just that.

[Lipoli390]

Those young Wolves what a bunch of chumps. They only produced 31 wins with a roster with 1 guy over 30, 2 backup PGs that started the year with 37 NBA games of experience between them. Their top backup big had 60 NBA games under his belt. The 2nd most experienced player on their roster played in 7 games 47 minutes total. Every single Wolf that had been on the team longer than a year had played for a new coach each of the last 4 seasons of they have been here that long. I get it there is rational reason to be skeptical of how mush these guys can improve especially with Lavine retiring from injury. It's worth mentioning it's not like these guys have had some uber smooth progression the last however many years they have been here. People forget some of these guys lost Flip and were likely pretty close to him. They had to persevere through that. That shouldn't be completely lost in the shuffle. I'm not letting these guys off the hook (or even Thibs) but maybe let's give them a little more benefit of the doubt or some more perspective.

Monster -- I think you way overreacted to my post. Nothing in my post suggested our young guys are a bunch of chumps or even that they're unlikely to become elite players. You acknowledge that there's room for skepticism based on what we've seen so far. That's all I was saying. I won't speak for Wild, but I was simply pointing to the well-founded uncertainty surrounding the development of our young core as a premise for continuing to pursue elite talent. One successful NBA executive years ago (I think was Danny Ainge) said he's "in the talent acquisition business." I'm still very optimistic about the ultimate development of KAT and reasonably optimistic about the development of Wiggins and LaVine, provided that Zach fully recovers from his ACL tear. But any 31-win team should continue to pursue high-end talent regardless of how much confidence that team has in the potential of its most promising young players. That's just common sense as a hedge against the unknown -- failure ot develop, deciding to go elsewhere or injury.

Lip I wasn't reacting to just your post. There are other posts in this thread plus the general feeling that because this team didn't arrive last year that this core isn't good enough etc. Where in my post did I say not to add more talent to the roster? That certainly wasn't my intention. My whole point was realize this team hasn't been all together built up and ready to roll it's still in process of being built up. I'm just saying this roster is far from a finished product but it feels like because they didn't go for 40 wins or whatever for example Wiggins isn't going to be good enough. I think a lot of people forget where this team is at in its development. I think next year there will be a decent jump regardless of the acquisitions (they need to add some depth obviously) because of the talent on the roster and the coaching staff being together from 1 season to the next.

Based on your posts I don't think we will disagree with much based on what the Wolves should do with the offseason. Personally based on the players that will be available and what salary guys are going to get I would keep building not overspend for a guy that is just better than what we have now. Keep building your roster and develop the players you have. Don't stop look to adding young talent. Based on Thibs comments at his season conclusion press conference they may be doing just that.

I see your point Monster and I agree. And yes, we clearly agree on the overall outlook and approach the Wolves front office should take going forward. I'm just hoping Thibs and Layden show the same savvy we've seen from the top NBA front offices like the Spurs.