Grizzlies/Wolves GDT

[AbeVigodaLive]

It seems to me that Thibs is putting more play making responsibility on Wiggins. He wants him to be Jimmy Butler 2.0 - but potentially even more potent. He also runs a lot of two-man action with Wiggins + KAT and LaVine + Dieng. All of this takes the ball out of Ricky's hands and forces him to be more of a floor spacer, which is not his ideal role.

The problem is that Ricky's heir apparent - Kris Dunn - is also not a floor spacer. Now, perhaps he develops a 3-point shot, but right now that seems a ways off.

The way Thibs is building this offense requires more of a 3 & D point guard like Derek Fisher was with the Lakers or Mario Chalmers with the Heat. The problem is Wiggins isn't nearly the play maker Kobe or LeBron were. And none of our current point guards have both the "3" and "D" as strengths.

We'll have to see how things evolve, but I'm pretty confident that Rubio is going to get traded eventually based on how Thibs is running the offense. The problem is we basically have a worse version of Rubio (worse for now at least) behind him.

Yes.

A lot of blame for Rubio's ineffectiveness/lack of impact. But let's not forget that Rubio was only about an average starting-level PG even when the ball was in his hands all the time. We know his awesomeness... and his flaws. Add them up and you have the Rubio we've seen for 5+ seasons now. Should Thibs be obligated to stay the course?

We've always acknowledged that he's an extremely polarizing player. Many teams wouldn't even look twice at "that type" of PG.

The question with the new regime was always about what kind of PG they wanted. Shouldn't be earth-shattering to anybody that a new regime has a different opinion of what needs to be done... especially if it's to enhance the value of players considered by almost everybody to be the future of the team.

Sans his stinkbomb last night, we've seen Wiggins appear to make a bit of a leap thus far. That's worth the trade-off, right?


[Note: That being said. Dunn looks terrible on offense.]

[Monster]

I haven't read this thread and finishing up this game now so here are some initial thoughts.

First of all I'm giving the Grizz credit for this game no doubt.

Overall the PG play other than maybe Rubio early in the game was worthless. Neither Dunn or Rubio are a threat to score right now is completely pathetic. Their defense wasn't really an asset considering their lack of ability to score. At what point do you give Tyus a shot? It's bizarre how bad it's been.

Payne played pretty well again. Who saw this coming seriously?

I thought there were some good signs defensively at least.

There were some stretches that the Wolves just couldn't make a shot. They had good looks they just didn't go down. Some of that is credit to the Grizz but man it just sucked the Wolves couldn't get a few buckets.

I thought Bazz had another solid game. It's maybe a sign of this young team that they aren't getting him touches at time in the game. That bench needs someone to score and if there is one thing he can do is score. To his credit he isn't hunting shots. It's quite frankly quite the revelation that can help the team farther down the road if he stays with the team.

Lavine looked healthy and was one of the only reasons this game was not much more ugly.

That's I'll I got I'll start reading through the thread.

[Monster]

It seems to me that Thibs is putting more play making responsibility on Wiggins. He wants him to be Jimmy Butler 2.0 - but potentially even more potent. He also runs a lot of two-man action with Wiggins + KAT and LaVine + Dieng. All of this takes the ball out of Ricky's hands and forces him to be more of a floor spacer, which is not his ideal role.

The problem is that Ricky's heir apparent - Kris Dunn - is also not a floor spacer. Now, perhaps he develops a 3-point shot, but right now that seems a ways off.

The way Thibs is building this offense requires more of a 3 & D point guard like Derek Fisher was with the Lakers or Mario Chalmers with the Heat. The problem is Wiggins isn't nearly the play maker Kobe or LeBron were. And none of our current point guards have both the "3" and "D" as strengths.

We'll have to see how things evolve, but I'm pretty confident that Rubio is going to get traded eventually based on how Thibs is running the offense. The problem is we basically have a worse version of Rubio (worse for now at least) behind him.

Yes.

A lot of blame for Rubio's ineffectiveness/lack of impact. But let's not forget that Rubio was only about an average starting-level PG even when the ball was in his hands all the time. We know his awesomeness... and his flaws. Add them up and you have the Rubio we've seen for 5+ seasons now. Should Thibs be obligated to stay the course?

We've always acknowledged that he's an extremely polarizing player. Many teams wouldn't even look twice at "that type" of PG.

The question with the new regime was always about what kind of PG they wanted. Shouldn't be earth-shattering to anybody that a new regime has a different opinion of what needs to be done... especially if it's to enhance the value of players considered by almost everybody to be the future of the team.

Sans his stinkbomb last night, we've seen Wiggins appear to make a bit of a leap thus far. That's worth the trade-off, right?

I'm as big of a Rubio fan as you will find anywhere but giving Wiggins or other players opportunities to play make now makes a ton of sense especially since Wiggins has actually shown some promise doing that role. Rubio is at his best (and at time worst) when he has the ball in his hands but I also think he can evolve a bit as he gets used to his role. Will he be the long term guy? Eh we have time to figure that out and Dunn has his own questions as well.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

LST, Wig had one of those games where his first few shots didn't fall and then he fell into the malaise we sometimes saw in this first two years. For lack of a better term he seemed to be sleepwalking out there. Gawd I hope this isn't something we see recurring this year. He was totally disengaged after the 1st quarter. Very disappointing after the string of games he had put together.

Thx Cool. I would agree that is disappointing, but I would offer that the consistent energy that he has brought this year suggests that last night is an outlier. Last year the sleepwalking games were more the rule than the exception, but this year he has reversed that. I'm going to the Celtics game tomorrow, and hope and expect to see the return of the Alpha Wiggins.

[kekgeek]

LST, Wig had one of those games where his first few shots didn't fall and then he fell into the malaise we sometimes saw in this first two years. For lack of a better term he seemed to be sleepwalking out there. Gawd I hope this isn't something we see recurring this year. He was totally disengaged after the 1st quarter. Very disappointing after the string of games he had put together.

Thx Cool. I would agree that is disappointing, but I would offer that the consistent energy that he has brought this year suggests that last night is an outlier. Last year the sleepwalking games were more the rule than the exception, but this year he has reversed that. I'm going to the Celtics game tomorrow, and hope and expect to see the return of the Alpha Wiggins.

They also hard hedged him/double him when he was playing point forward. They tried to get the ball out of his hands

[Lipoli390]

Ricky is MUCH better with the ball in his hands running the offensive than he is playing off the ball as Thibs has him doing a lot so far this season. It makes absolutely no sense to put Ricky and the team at such a disadvantage. If this was Thibs' intent coming here, as it surely was, he should have traded Ricky before the season started. Doing what he's doing with Ricky hurts the team's ability to make the playoffs and diminishes Ricky's trade value. Because of all the scorers we have on this team, we don't need a scoring PG. We need a terrific playmaker who can also defend and rebound - all of which describes Ricky. Wiggins has taken a leap to where he can make plays with the ball in his hands, but that's still not his forte as evident in his 5 turnovers against the Griz. And it's not the team's best use of either Wiggins or Ricky.

I agree with LST that the disappointing start so far is likely attributable to Thibs' coaching. And I agree with LST's list of changes Thibs should make. I hope LST is wrong, but I suspect he's right. Time will tell. Cam thinks we'll be a much better team come January. I hope he's right. I think we'll need to see dramatic improvement by mid-December for me to have confidence that Thibs is the right fit for this team.

[Monster]

Ricky is MUCH better with the ball in his hands running the offensive than he is playing off the ball as Thibs has him doing a lot so far this season. It makes absolutely no sense to put Ricky and the team at such a disadvantage. If this was Thibs' intent coming here, as it surely was, he should have traded Ricky before the season started. Doing what he's doing with Ricky hurts the team's ability to make the playoffs and diminishes Ricky's trade value. Because of all the scorers we have on this team, we don't need a scoring PG. We need a terrific playmaker who can also defend and rebound - all of which describes Ricky. Wiggins has taken a leap to where he can make plays with the ball in his hands, but that's still not his forte as evident in his 5 turnovers against the Griz. And it's not the team's best use of either Wiggins or Ricky.

I agree with LST that the disappointing start so far is likely attributable to Thibs' coaching. And I agree with LST's list of changes Thibs should make. I hope LST is wrong, but I suspect he's right. Time will tell. Cam thinks we'll be a much better team come January. I hope he's right. I think we'll need to see dramatic improvement by mid-December for me to have confidence that Thibs is the right fit for this team.

One of Concerns about Thibs coming in was he was going to coach for immediate wins and so far that doesn't look to be the case. Thibs seems to be coaching for the future more than getting wins now. Thibs has played mostly younger players and giving Wiggins opportunities to handle the ball which seems like a smart thing to do espcially considering how Wiggins has played this season.

As for wasting Rubio...Dunn has largely been a poor player. Unless they were going to add another vet PG having Rubio is gonna help this team. Let's also keep in mind Rubio has missed a few games and that could have effected him a bit finding his groove in a different offensive role. Also if Rubio can't hit a decent percentage of catch and shoot 3's...that's a real problem. I think Rubio is playing to frantic at times. He needs to settle down a bit. Now do I think part of Rubio and Even Dunn's struggles to be effective with the ball in their hands partly on how Thibs has coached the offense? Yeah I can see that but ultimately I want to see a team that has a free flowing offense with lots of passing moving the ball and that means plenty of other people other than the PG moving with the ball. Also Dieng and Lavine are pretty good playing that two man game.

[AbeVigodaLive]

We want cake.

And we're gonna eat it too.

1. We want Rubio to grow as a player, but want to see Wiggins and others evolve as the guys with the ball in their hands.
2. We want Thibs to run with status quo... but regret that he didn't trade Rubio right away.

[Coolbreeze44]

I don't care whether Ricky has the ball in his hands or not. This team can score points with or without him on the floor. That's been proven many times this year. And when he plays as shitty as he did last night, he shouldn't be on the floor at all. In fact he becomes a negative on offense because his man can shade to the other Wolves on the court. If you want to get on Thibs, get on him for actually having both Rubio and Dunn on the court at the same time. Talk about limiting yourself.

The bottom line is this team doesn't need to cater to Ricky whatsoever. It's time for Tyus to get some more run.

[Coolbreeze44]

Jim Pete liked this tweet:

playing 4 on 5 against good teams gets you beat!! No scoring from the PG spot is a big issue.