monsterpile wrote:At this point if feels to me Dunn is a key to this team going forward because right now PG play is a concern. Dunn hasn't been amazing but I think he clearly has been much more comfortable offensively the last few games and that jumper is looking a hell of a lot better.
So what kind of player is Dunn gonna be for us? Cam I know you had liked Dunn a lot last year at one point. Do you have any thoughts on what you can hope he can become for this team?
Meanwhile some other young PGs are struggling. Mudiay can't hit a shot and I saw an article saying his net rating is terrible and suggested some other guard I won't name should be playing PG for that team.
Elfrid Payton has lost his starting spot to DJ Augustine.
MCW is still injured.
Jerian Grant Was a guy I liked a lot and his career hasn't been remotely successful.
Why mention all these guys? Well they are all guys with some pretty nice talent at this position coming out of the draft and right now some of them probably look closer to backups than starters although it's still early for a couple of them. Some of them have had some actual success though before seeming to fade. What will Dunn's fate be?
If Dunn is the key to the Wolves future, then the franchise is in deep shit. And that's not because I'm convinced Dunn won't be a good NBA player. He could become very good. It's because the obvious keys to this team are KAT, Wiggins and LaVine. All three have already proven to be starting caliber NBA players and have demonstrated allstar, possible superstar potential at the NBA level. And all three are still only 21 years old. The Wolves will only go as far as those three, or at least two of them, can take us.
As for Dunn, he came to the League as a college upperclassman already older than Andrew, Zach or KAT. Yet so far he hasn't even demonstrated that he can compete as a starting PG at the NBA level, much less as anything close to an allstar-caliber player. He may get there, but I'm not holding my breath. I like his defensive potential and he could develop into a good offensive PG as well. But he has a long way to go to be anything close to someone to whom I'd pin the hopes of the franchise.
To win championships you have to have players that aren't stars be worthwhile players. Dunn doesn't have to be a star or all-star or even a top 15 PG (it's a loaded position) to be a key player.
I agree on the need to have a solid supporting cast around your 2 or 3 stars to win NBA championships. But in that regard, Dunn is no more of a key than a number of others we have (Dieng) or might acquire through free agency or trades down the road. Dunn might be important as part of a trade to acquire a solid supporting cast member or might grow into one himself. But right now, he hasn't shown anything to suggest he'll be more than a role player on this team (bench defender). In my view that makes him one of many possibilities to be part of an eventually championship roster. But to me that doesn't make him a key. I'm reserving that term for our young potential stars and thankfully we have 3 of them -- each with a lot to learn but all of them very young and very promising.
Good post, Lip. Completely agree here.
I'm guessing we are mostly disagreeing in how we each define a key player.
I think it's difficult to try and fit someone in a box who's played 25 NBA games. I know that's what we do in a forum such as this. I don't believe Tibs will include him in a trade, I think it's very likely he views Dunn as part of this future core. He has the potential to do a lot of things at a high level. Lip you would of had Lavine traded after his first 25 games of his rookie year. It takes time.
Duke13 wrote:I think it's difficult to try and fit someone in a box who's played 25 NBA games. I know that's what we do in a forum such as this. I don't believe Tibs will include him in a trade, I think it's very likely he views Dunn as part of this future core. He has the potential to do a lot of things at a high level. Lip you would of had Lavine traded after his first 25 games of his rookie year. It takes time.
Duke -- Actually, I would NOT have had Zach traded after his first 25 games or any time since he was drafted. You might recall, I've been very high on Zach from the beginning and have been one of the few consistently opposed even to demoting him to the second unit. It took me one game to see he was oozing talent -- including a picture-perfect shooting stroke to go with lightening speed and super hops. I don't see the same level of talent in Dunn. But note that I've never advocated for trading him and still don't. My only point is that he hasn't demonstrated anything to suggest he can be considered a potential allstar and, therefore, part of our core around whom we should build the team. I think Monster and I just have a different over terminology. I'm still hopeful that Dunn will develop into a defensive stalwart whose offensive is good enough to make him a significant valuable part of our rotation.
There is no way I'd consider trading Rubio before the trade deadline unless we were surprisingly able to get a really good PG in return. With both Andrew and Zach up for extensions next Fall, it's imperative that this team win as many games as possible and finish strong. As bad as we've been so far this season, does anyone really think we wouldn't be worse with Dunn as our starting PG and Tyus our #2 at that position? We've passed the point when we can make personnel decisions based solely on the long-range goals of this franchise. We're at a point where we need to start winning. It's bad enough that we're going to end up in the lottery again next Spring. But let's at least finish strong and make a push for a strong 9th place finish that has Zach and Andrew feeling good about staying here and willing to accept a 4-yr rather than 5 yr deal next Fall.
It gets back to this idea of eventually having a Tyus/Dunn backcourt pairing off the bench. They seem to have awfully complimentary skill-sets.
I agree and at this pace we will draft our starting PG this summer and shoudl find a taker for Rubio.
I'd be shocked if Rubio's on this team past the deadline.
What's your thinking behind that stance?
I think Thibs recognizes his shortcomings and has higher expectations for that position. I also think he believes Ricky can still fetch something attractive in the trade market. I don't think it's addition by subtraction, but that we can genuinely improve by moving him (it wont' be a PG in return). It would open up other possibilities at the point guard position for us. I'd like to see it give Zach an opportunity to be the de-facto point guard. But my gut tells me Dunn is going to get the opportunity before that happens. Ultimately I think we will add some bulk and size, and Ricky is going to be the chip we use.
It gets back to this idea of eventually having a Tyus/Dunn backcourt pairing off the bench. They seem to have awfully complimentary skill-sets.
I agree and at this pace we will draft our starting PG this summer and shoudl find a taker for Rubio.
I'd be shocked if Rubio's on this team past the deadline.
What's your thinking behind that stance?
I think Thibs recognizes his shortcomings and has higher expectations for that position. I also think he believes Ricky can still fetch something attractive in the trade market. I don't think it's addition by subtraction, but that we can genuinely improve by moving him (it wont' be a PG in return). It would open up other possibilities at the point guard position for us. I'd like to see it give Zach an opportunity to be the de-facto point guard. But my gut tells me Dunn is going to get the opportunity before that happens. Ultimately I think we will add some bulk and size, and Ricky is going to be the chip we use.
Thanks for the response. I'm glad I asked for your thoughts.
Right now I am concerned Rubio doesn't bring back much in return. Mannix and Marks had a Wolves segment recently that I watched tonight and they said the same thing and Mannix said he is a big Rubio fan. They basically feel the season is over and it's time to look to the future.
It feels like whatever they get for Rubio is at best a fringe starter which...might be to some extent what's Rubio is. I have faith that eventually Dunn has a legit chance to be a solid starting PG but right now it's certainly unclear when that will be and Lip has pointed out they kinda need to not suck.
Rubio hasn't been the answer this year so far so...yeah I suppose at this point it might not hurt so much moving from him. On the other hand Rubio when healthy has basically always had a positive effect when he plays. It's possible he is part of this team turning things around for this season. That doesn't make him the answer but he could be useful in getting things going in the right direction. We will see. The next 3-4 weeks are going to be interesting for the Wolves but for other teams as well.
I too would be interested in moving Rubio for a big man of equal (or better) quality, and there are a number of teams that could be our trade partners. I think our point guard position as a whole has been relatively ineffective this year except for Jones in minimal playing time, and at the same time I think we physically get beat up inside nightly. Cool and I are of the same belief -- we need some beef down low.
Where we disagree a little bit is on WHO that big could be, but there are some names I think we'd both be in on, namely Kenneth Faried. I mentioned him pre-draft as someone I would have gone after aggressively and he does have a team-friendly contract. His defense isn't on the same level as Tristan Thompson, but Faried's that same kind of spark plug that can make big differences in games with his energy and activity level. It's ironic, however, that we'd hypothetically (potentially) move Rubio in some way to get him because I always thought he would have been a great fit WITH the Spaniard.
I'm also still in on Greg Monroe, and we know Milwaukee has had interest in Rubio as recently as last season. That could be a simple one-for-one swap I believe with both parts feeling good about the deal.
Camden wrote:I too would be interested in moving Rubio for a big man of equal (or better) quality, and there are a number of teams that could be our trade partners. I think our point guard position as a whole has been relatively ineffective this year except for Jones in minimal playing time, and at the same time I think we physically get beat up inside nightly. Cool and I are of the same belief -- we need some beef down low.
Where we disagree a little bit is on WHO that big could be, but there are some names I think we'd both be in on, namely Kenneth Faried. I mentioned him pre-draft as someone I would have gone after aggressively and he does have a team-friendly contract. His defense isn't on the same level as Tristan Thompson, but Faried's that same kind of spark plug that can make big differences in games with his energy and activity level. It's ironic, however, that we'd hypothetically (potentially) move Rubio in some way to get him because I always thought he would have been a great fit WITH the Spaniard.
I'm also still in on Greg Monroe, and we know Milwaukee has had interest in Rubio as recently as last season. That could be a simple one-for-one swap I believe with both parts feeling good about the deal.
Don't get me wrong Cam, I don't think Monroe is a bad player. I just don't like the fit. He is woefully slow and not getting any younger. Faried I love. He would fit right in and give us some octane we are missing for some reason. Hopefully it would be contagious. I'm just not sure what Denver would want from us.
Camden wrote:I too would be interested in moving Rubio for a big man of equal (or better) quality, and there are a number of teams that could be our trade partners. I think our point guard position as a whole has been relatively ineffective this year except for Jones in minimal playing time, and at the same time I think we physically get beat up inside nightly. Cool and I are of the same belief -- we need some beef down low.
Where we disagree a little bit is on WHO that big could be, but there are some names I think we'd both be in on, namely Kenneth Faried. I mentioned him pre-draft as someone I would have gone after aggressively and he does have a team-friendly contract. His defense isn't on the same level as Tristan Thompson, but Faried's that same kind of spark plug that can make big differences in games with his energy and activity level. It's ironic, however, that we'd hypothetically (potentially) move Rubio in some way to get him because I always thought he would have been a great fit WITH the Spaniard.
I'm also still in on Greg Monroe, and we know Milwaukee has had interest in Rubio as recently as last season. That could be a simple one-for-one swap I believe with both parts feeling good about the deal.
Don't get me wrong Cam, I don't think Monroe is a bad player. I just don't like the fit. He is woefully slow and not getting any younger. Faried I love. He would fit right in and give us some octane we are missing for some reason. Hopefully it would be contagious. I'm just not sure what Denver would want from us.
I would think the Kings and Sixers are more reasonable trade partners and they both have a surplus of bigs. Koufus would be a nice complimentary player. Lip and I wanted to keep him back in the day like 2 rebuilds ago. Lol
