Convince Me Otherwise

[60WinTim]

I loved Zach and had high hopes for him. I really wish him the best in Chicago because he is such "a great dude". But most any measure of analytics say our top 3 players are KAT, Wiggins and Rubio. And not necessarily in that order. And we got Butler without losing any of our top 3 players. Grand theft larceny kind of sums it up...

[BloopOracle]

Why are you taking the view that we have boxed ourselves in when Wiggins and towns are only 22 years old? We have no idea where we are about to top out at but we just added arguably the best two-way player and his prime for the next half-decade while we see what towns in Wiggins develop into. You make it sound like we're Memphis with players who have all reached their potential! There is still 20 million in cap space and we just added a superstar who literally improves every single year that's a statistical fact and high-potential young players, I don't really know what else you wanted us to do. We could have maxed out Lavine and then you could have made the same post anyway about how we're tapped out. I'd rather have a bona fide player next to towns if he does blow up into a superstar then have him leave because he feels we didn't make moves to win.

[Lipoli390]

Future -

I agree with you. I was absolutely devastated on draft night when they made the trade. I was at a party last night and friends were having a good time at my expense seeing I'm the only person in the world outside of Chicago who felt the same what. You've clearly stated the reasons why this may not be the best move for the long term future.

I heard Glen's press conference, I believe he was instrumental in putting pressure on the organization to make this kind of move.
Besides Wig and Kat, our team of bare of talent to put around the big 3 to make deep playoff runs, thats the way I see it anyway.

I was in the minority, but I didn't think the wolves had to make the playoffs this year. I get it's hard to argue getting Butler for what we had to give up. All I know is I'm less excited about the teams future then I was before the trade. Weird I know.

I feel the same way Duke. Interesting observation on the Taylor presser. I haven't head it, but after the deal was announced the other night, I turned to my friend and said that Glen Taylor's finger prints were all over this one. But after reflecting, I suspect Thibs would have made this deal even without any prodding or concern about Glen.

[Monster]

Future -

I agree with you. I was absolutely devastated on draft night when they made the trade. I was at a party last night and friends were having a good time at my expense seeing I'm the only person in the world outside of Chicago who felt the same what. You've clearly stated the reasons why this may not be the best move for the long term future.

I heard Glen's press conference, I believe he was instrumental in putting pressure on the organization to make this kind of move.
Besides Wig and Kat, our team of bare of talent to put around the big 3 to make deep playoff runs, thats the way I see it anyway.

I was in the minority, but I didn't think the wolves had to make the playoffs this year. I get it's hard to argue getting Butler for what we had to give up. All I know is I'm less excited about the teams future then I was before the trade. Weird I know.

I feel the same way Duke. Interesting observation on the Taylor presser. I haven't head it, but after the deal was announced the other night, I turned to my friend and said that Glen Taylor's finger prints were all over this one. But after reflecting, I suspect Thibs would have made this deal even without any prodding or concern about Glen.

It's Jimmy Butler. I have a hard time Glen was the guy trying to convince Thibs to trade for Butler. I'd guess to some extent Thibs was communicating to Glen why they should make this deal because of his obvious knowledge of Butler. Was it hard to convince Glen? Probably not. This deal made sense for both Thibs and Glen. Glen and Thibs confirmed they had to have #16 back or te deal wouldn't have happened. That means the Wolves did value the assets they gave up.

[thedoper]

If you believe that Dunn and Lavine are better long term assets than Butler there is no convincing you at this point. Winning may help some of the ails you are feeling for a while I hope. Nothing is guaranteed in any business. I like that we gained a surefire player for some of our long term potential, without parting with our two best assets. In our situation it was going to be a chore to keep our core together either way. Winning and making some noise in the playoffs has to be part of developing the momentum to build a complete team. GS made moves around their core long before they became what they were. They acquired Bogut, they signed Iggy. There were naysayers linked to those moves as well I am sure. But I believe this is the sort of tweaking that is necessary for building a great product long term. Thibs doesn't strike me as the kind of person who is going to ignore the risks in this situation, and as you point out they are there. But there were legit risks in relying on the development of Dunn and Lavine. We could have kept them and equally trapped as a 3-8 seed. Or we could have had another year missing the playoffs and started seeing disgruntled young players. On court success is always going to give you more options. We have to stay diligent in scouting, keep angling for young assets to round out the core. Allow yourself a little joy, especially in a sports environment where we have had so little of it for ages.

GS did NOT make moves around their core "long before they became what they were." Look at my "case for patience" thread for the particulars. The Warriors made their big jump from a 23-win lottery team to a 47-win playoff team BEFORE they acquired Iggy. And although they acquired Bogut the summer before their leap to the playoffs, Bogut missed the vast majority of that season with an injury. The difference? The warriors added three key rookies that summer -- Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes. They added only one important vet named Carl Landry, but he wasn't that critical and they didn't give up any young core players to get him. The Thunder made a similar move from 23 wins to 50 wins without adding any significant veterans or trading any of their core young guys. Instead, they added two key rookies that summer -- James Harden and Serge Ibaka. It was those additional plus the continued maturation of Durant and Westbrook that resulted in the Thunder becoming the contender they became. The biggest mistake that franchise make was trading Harden, not knowing at the time that Durant would leave. The Bulls back in the late 80s went from 30 wins to nearly 50 wins with the addition of Pippen and Grant to Jordan in his 3rd season.

There's definitely a case to be made for the Butler trade. But pointing to other organizations is just part of a false narrative. The true narrative of success is that young players struggle for a while, but if you've finally assembled enough of them and they're really talented, they will ultimately succeed with experience. And actually, the experience isn't 5-10 years, but closer to 2-4 years.

At the Time Ellis was a key piece to Golden States's core, that is my point.They had no idea Draymond would become what he did when they made that trade, they hadn't even drafted him yet. Barnes and Draymond were drafted after the Bogut trade, when Bogut didn't play much of the half season he was brought in.Their team was Steph, Klay, and Monta at the point of the trade. This conversation is really all about how highly people view Lavine's potential. I think Lavine is Monta Ellis and we capitalized at a perfect time to get a player that is a better talent and a better fit on our team.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Future, you also have to respect that the Wolves are a business. They aren't just there to serve the "championship or bust" purists like yourself. So while you have every right to have your opinion, I hope you understand that a half-empty arena on most nights is not good business, and in fact, could jeopardize the status of the franchise staying in Minnesota. The optimism you have over the existing core of young guys (prior to the trade) was not shared by the average fan, who saw them stumble to an uninspiring 31 win season after many pundits predicted the playoffs. No one was going to buy the whole "promise of hope" thing again....

[Monster]

If you believe that Dunn and Lavine are better long term assets than Butler there is no convincing you at this point. Winning may help some of the ails you are feeling for a while I hope. Nothing is guaranteed in any business. I like that we gained a surefire player for some of our long term potential, without parting with our two best assets. In our situation it was going to be a chore to keep our core together either way. Winning and making some noise in the playoffs has to be part of developing the momentum to build a complete team. GS made moves around their core long before they became what they were. They acquired Bogut, they signed Iggy. There were naysayers linked to those moves as well I am sure. But I believe this is the sort of tweaking that is necessary for building a great product long term. Thibs doesn't strike me as the kind of person who is going to ignore the risks in this situation, and as you point out they are there. But there were legit risks in relying on the development of Dunn and Lavine. We could have kept them and equally trapped as a 3-8 seed. Or we could have had another year missing the playoffs and started seeing disgruntled young players. On court success is always going to give you more options. We have to stay diligent in scouting, keep angling for young assets to round out the core. Allow yourself a little joy, especially in a sports environment where we have had so little of it for ages.

GS did NOT make moves around their core "long before they became what they were." Look at my "case for patience" thread for the particulars. The Warriors made their big jump from a 23-win lottery team to a 47-win playoff team BEFORE they acquired Iggy. And although they acquired Bogut the summer before their leap to the playoffs, Bogut missed the vast majority of that season with an injury. The difference? The warriors added three key rookies that summer -- Klay Thompson, Draymond Green and Harrison Barnes. They added only one important vet named Carl Landry, but he wasn't that critical and they didn't give up any young core players to get him. The Thunder made a similar move from 23 wins to 50 wins without adding any significant veterans or trading any of their core young guys. Instead, they added two key rookies that summer -- James Harden and Serge Ibaka. It was those additional plus the continued maturation of Durant and Westbrook that resulted in the Thunder becoming the contender they became. The biggest mistake that franchise make was trading Harden, not knowing at the time that Durant would leave. The Bulls back in the late 80s went from 30 wins to nearly 50 wins with the addition of Pippen and Grant to Jordan in his 3rd season.

There's definitely a case to be made for the Butler trade. But pointing to other organizations is just part of a false narrative. The true narrative of success is that young players struggle for a while, but if you've finally assembled enough of them and they're really talented, they will ultimately succeed with experience. And actually, the experience isn't 5-10 years, but closer to 2-4 years.

At the Time Ellis was a key piece to Golden States's core, that is my point.They had no idea Draymond would become what he did when they made that trade, they hadn't even drafted him yet. Barnes and Draymond were drafted after the Bogut trade, when Bogut didn't play much of the half season he was brought in.Their team was Steph, Klay, and Monta at the point of the trade. This conversation is really all about how highly people view Lavine's potential. I think Lavine is Monta Ellis and we capitalized at a perfect time to get a player that is a better talent and a better fit on our team.

Monte and Lavine (their situations on their teams) are a comparison I have thought has had merit and I wanted to keep Levine. Lavine you can argue has more potential but Butler is better player than Bogut was bit the Wolves gave up more to get him. Let's also remember that Ellis was a guy that made plays was a top steal guy and his 3rd year in the league put up 20ppg and he wasn't a very good 3 point shooter. In the previous seasons before he was traded it looked like he was going to break through as a 3 point shooter. Jerry West was the guy that encouraged them to make the move. It wasn't an easy one to make.

[Big O [enjin:13874644]]

I read this board to learn from the rest of you all of which have more basketball knowledge than me. I have been a fan since Pooh was drafted and was a season ticket holder for 10 years, but I like winning teams. The game does not hold my attention when my team isn't winning.

For the last decade I have had little reason to follow this board or watch the games after January. I'm not a big hockey fan but last year I went to a half dozen Wild games in February and March. I went to one wolves game last year because I was given great tickets. Why? Because the Wild were winners and playoff bound. The Wolves... well you know.

People like me are the reason this trade had to be made. 14 years of lottery bound play and promises for the future is way past getting old. Lavine was my favorite player on the team. It is hard to see him go (Wiggins who I do not like based on lack of effort would have been my choice to trade), but the real chance of playoff basketball has me totally jazzed about this team again.

Will this trade make us title contenders? Probably not. But playing meaningful basketball in March and April will get me to spend my $ in Minneapolis rather than St. Paul.

[Coolbreeze44]

While i can understand the championship or bust mentality, hek i wrote the book on it, I don't understand having a major problem with this trade. It definitely hurt to give up Zach. His camaraderie with Wig and Towns was something i wanted to see grow over the next several years. I wanted it to work out that way and have us be a contender that way. But something was missing, we didn't make the leap we should have last year. Dunn was totally underwhelming during his rookie campaign. He may get better but he has some shortcomings which are going to be difficult to overcome. We could have added Zach Collins at #7 and that would have been a good move. But it's hard to argue that we aren't significantly better today than we would have been standing pat.

Here's the other thing, suppose Butler moves on after two years. We still have two huge cornerstones that are only going to be 24 years old to continue to build around. That's an advantage that most teams won't have, and you can reasonably expect competent management to be able to surround those two with the right pieces.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

I'll try to do some convincing lol. Lavine's potential is not higher than the player Butler is today. Lavine has a 0% chance to become the defender Butler is and Butler is still a great offensive player who gets better every year. Zach could become a better offensive player than Jimmy, but there is a 0% chance Zach becomes the elite two way player that Jimmy is. Guys just don't go from God awful defenders to elite. They go from God awful to above average maybe.

I don't think people understand how good Butler is. Top 15 doesn't really do justice to what he does on both sides of the ball. He scores 23 points per game, lives at the free throw line, shuts down your best player and was the second most clutch player in the league last year behind Westbrook statistically. The triple doubles of Harden and Westbrook are flashy, but the real grit and grind plays that win games come from a guy like Butler because he does it on both sides of the ball. We just paired that with a generational talent in Towns and now a guy in Wiggins who is a significant mismatch as the 3rd best player on a team. We just paired the second most clutch player in the league with a team who would have been playoff bound last year if they just could have closed games out.

We have two top 15 players now. The only other teams who can say that are the Warriors and Cavs. This makes us a contender. And when you are a contender you just need a break to get to a finals. The Warriors caught a break this year when Kawhi went down. Who knows who wins that series with the way it was started if he stays healthy. I think we are now the 3rd best team in the conference. Jimmy Butler is Harden and Westbrook kryptonite. The Clippers don't have a prayer at stopping a wing scoring combo of Butler and Wiggins. The Jazz might be losing two starters. And nobody else in the conference really has the pieces to make a big jump as of this post.

We have two guys who live at the line in Wiggins and Butler which is old school winning basketball and a generational offensive talent in Towns in the frontcourt none of these teams can stop. If Towns and Wiggins make significant defensive strides I think that overtakes the Spurs for 2nd best team. And when I say 2nd or 3rd best team I don't necessarily mean in regular season record. I mean when it comes to the playoffs and you have to beat someone 4 out of 7, I think we are setup to be the second or third best team at doing that. We have the tools to be a contender. I think that's gonna keep Butler around and we'll be a very good team for years to come and the cost was good potential, but potential that I don't think ever reaches Jimmy's level.