2017 Offseason Part 2

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

G and Towns don't work together. Their combination is a primary reason we suck so much on defense. Neither protects the rim at even an average level. There's a reason Belly was starting to close out games over G. The defense didn't take a hit and the offense added a better weapon. G is a backup big. 14 million is a little steep for a backup, but he can backup both spots so you can play Towns and whoever 68 minutes and give G the other 28. Then you don't have 30+ minutes of a bad defensive combination in Towns and G. You have about half that which is manageable.

[Monster]

I'd be interested to here what guys people would like to see added as a starting PF with a bit of a different outlook with Butler here. There are only so many higher level options even if we did have the cap space.

I like the starting PF we have -- whether it's Gorgui or KAT. It's time to switch forcus from what will be a very, very good starting lineup with Butler, Wiggins, KAT, Gorgui and Ricky. We need a bench!! Right now our bench is Cole Alrich, Tyus Jones and Belly -- and Belly's still in a boot coming off foot surgery. If we don't seriously upgrade and fill in our bench, the Butler acquisition will have been for naught.

You guys know my position...the issue last year was not the quality of our bench, it was how they were employed. NBA role players need consistent minutes to reach their potential...you've all heard them say that...and they just didn't get that last year. Rush, Aldrich, and Hill have all had success as bench players with teams better than the Wolves...did they all coincidentally regress at the same time last year, or might it have had something to do with the minutes they were given? I don't know, but it sure seems odd to ne that they all became terrible players at the same time. Yes, go out and find some more bench role players that fill needs, but then you gotta play them...don't let them languish on the bench. Our starting five is so good that I wouldn't have a big problem backing them up with Tyus, Belly, Rush, and Aldrich for a 9-man rotation. Add a good shooter as a 10th man who is comfortable playing a reserve role (i.e. no chance of a starter like Reddick), and we will really have something going.

You have a lot more faith in Hill and Aldrich than I do. Hill, in particular, isn't someone you can rely on. There's a reason he doesn't last long anywhere he goes. A friend of mine in New York said D'Antoni couldn't stand him when he coached the Knicks. Said he was one of the laziest players he'd ever coached. Also note that Belly's coming off foot surgery. That's dicey. Now that we have Butler, we have to be smart about how we use our remaining $22 million in cap space. I think it would be a mistake to use half of that cap room simply to replace Ricky or Gorgui with a better starter. Assuming KAT and Wiggins take a leap forward defensively this season, we'll have 3 elite players in our starting line up and two vergy good complementary starters in Ricky Gorgui. That's plenty. Now it's time to focus on creating a strong rotation cadre of the bench. That means adding guys like Joe Ingles and either Mills or Collison. Then we'd have a robust rotation and some protection against injury.

My point exactly, you add Patty Mills, you mind as well get out of Rubio's 14 million because there isn't a comparison on who you'd want on the court closing games between those two.

Let say you could wash your hands of Ricky, Gorgui, and Cole. Basically have a blank slate outside of the big 3. We have about 20-22 million with those three players. Those 3 make a combined 35 million roughly. So assuming you could trade those players without taking salary back, obviously not easy to do, and maybe it's impossible, but most people seem to think Ricky and Gorgui are on reasonable if not great deals. But let's say you did. You could have 55-57 million to spend. They aren't going offer 26 mil to Lowry or Millsap but you better believe Tibs is going to try and get them on a deal around 80 mil for 4 years while selling them on the idea we can win big here. You can't tell me it's not worth doing, and you can't tell me Tibs isn't going going to do that.

You laid out a possible scenario well Duke. How likely is it that a player like that would take less money to come here? Idk but I think your angle is likely what is being explored.

Also I love Dieng but the Wolves should absolutely be looking at ways to improve on him. I think he is better playing PF than he is given credit for but he would be more valuable as a C to another team espcially if they had a player maker that can get him the ball and they actually had some use for his ability to score a bit. The issue with that is...the impact players at PF that are available in FA is pretty short. It's basically Griffin Millsap and Ibaka. After that it goes down to players that are probably Dieng's level or maybe not as good but would be a better fit than Dieng and with the way the cap is and how teams may be strapped more than expected you maybe able to get someone on a pretty good contract. If Thibs and Layden move on from either Dieng or Rubio it's because they added a better player just like they did with the Butler trade. Backup centers will be relatively easy to add someone pretty competent if the Wolves move Dieng. Its kinda funny to say that now after the spending spree for those guys a little over a year ago.

[Lipoli390]

I'd be interested to here what guys people would like to see added as a starting PF with a bit of a different outlook with Butler here. There are only so many higher level options even if we did have the cap space.

I like the starting PF we have -- whether it's Gorgui or KAT. It's time to switch forcus from what will be a very, very good starting lineup with Butler, Wiggins, KAT, Gorgui and Ricky. We need a bench!! Right now our bench is Cole Alrich, Tyus Jones and Belly -- and Belly's still in a boot coming off foot surgery. If we don't seriously upgrade and fill in our bench, the Butler acquisition will have been for naught.

You guys know my position...the issue last year was not the quality of our bench, it was how they were employed. NBA role players need consistent minutes to reach their potential...you've all heard them say that...and they just didn't get that last year. Rush, Aldrich, and Hill have all had success as bench players with teams better than the Wolves...did they all coincidentally regress at the same time last year, or might it have had something to do with the minutes they were given? I don't know, but it sure seems odd to ne that they all became terrible players at the same time. Yes, go out and find some more bench role players that fill needs, but then you gotta play them...don't let them languish on the bench. Our starting five is so good that I wouldn't have a big problem backing them up with Tyus, Belly, Rush, and Aldrich for a 9-man rotation. Add a good shooter as a 10th man who is comfortable playing a reserve role (i.e. no chance of a starter like Reddick), and we will really have something going.

You have a lot more faith in Hill and Aldrich than I do. Hill, in particular, isn't someone you can rely on. There's a reason he doesn't last long anywhere he goes. A friend of mine in New York said D'Antoni couldn't stand him when he coached the Knicks. Said he was one of the laziest players he'd ever coached. Also note that Belly's coming off foot surgery. That's dicey. Now that we have Butler, we have to be smart about how we use our remaining $22 million in cap space. I think it would be a mistake to use half of that cap room simply to replace Ricky or Gorgui with a better starter. Assuming KAT and Wiggins take a leap forward defensively this season, we'll have 3 elite players in our starting line up and two vergy good complementary starters in Ricky Gorgui. That's plenty. Now it's time to focus on creating a strong rotation cadre of the bench. That means adding guys like Joe Ingles and either Mills or Collison. Then we'd have a robust rotation and some protection against injury.

My point exactly, you add Patty Mills, you mind as well get out of Rubio's 14 million because there isn't a comparison on who you'd want on the court closing games between those two.

Let say you could wash your hands of Ricky, Gorgui, and Cole. Basically have a blank slate outside of the big 3. We have about 20-22 million with those three players. Those 3 make a combined 35 million roughly. So assuming you could trade those players without taking salary back, obviously not easy to do, and maybe it's impossible, but most people seem to think Ricky and Gorgui are on reasonable if not great deals. But let's say you did. You could have 55-57 million to spend. They aren't going offer 26 mil to Lowry or Millsap but you better believe Tibs is going to try and get them on a deal around 80 mil for 4 years while selling them on the idea we can win big here. You can't tell me it's not worth doing, and you can't tell me Tibs isn't going going to do that.

Duke -- If Thibs is going to chase guys like Lowry, then you've provided the right path to get there. But I don't like the idea of trading Ricky and Gorgui for nothing other than more cap space in the hope you can sign the guys you're chasing. I also don't see a FA out there who would be an upgrade over Dieng at PF. I'd be surprised if Thibs was pursuing the fully salary dump you suggested, i.e., trading both Ricky and Gorgui. But I wouldn't be surprised if Thibs is looking at trading Ricky for cap space in connection with signing Lowry. I just think that would be a bad idea because even at $20 million rather than $24 or $25 million, we'd come up short on the cap space I think we need to fill in our rotation beyond our starting five. And I'm still not thrilled with Lowry as a fit at age 31.

[kekgeek]

I got a question are we even allowed to trade gorgui. Technically we are signing a free agent in gorgui (with the extention) and it takes in effect on July 1. Are we allowed to trade him with no sign and trade in affect (so can't trade him till December like every other free agent signing)

Also what PF are we getting that is noticeably better than gorgui for less or a little more money?

What is his value around the league. Is gorgui for KOQ and Lee equal value. Or what about just Lee (then you sign Gibson or something like that.)

[Monster]

I got a question are we even allowed to trade gorgui. Technically we are signing a free agent in gorgui (with the extention) and it takes in effect on July 1. Are we allowed to trade him with no sign and trade in affect (so can't trade him till December like every other free agent signing)

Also what PF are we getting that is noticeably better than gorgui for less or a little more money?

What is his value around the league. Is gorgui for KOQ and Lee equal value. Or what about just Lee (then you sign Gibson or something like that.)

That's a good question about if Dieng is eligible to be traded with his extension. I know there is talk about paul George signing an extension and then being traded to the Celtics but that would be under the new CBA and Dieng's contract is under the old one.

After players that we could get...the Wolves are now in a place they could be a couple moves from being legit contenders. Millsap before the Butler trade we would have had to show him the money even if he wasn't getting a max deal. The Dunc'd on podcast guys and some others said Denver made sense and there was a report they were going after Millsap. This is all hypothetical but stay with me. If Millsap is interested in winning over the most money he could look around and see what spot makes sense. Denver has one legitamately good player in Jokic and he is like Towns a terrific all around player who is young and sucks bad defensively. That team has a depth of talent but Millsap has been there with Atlanta teams. He would probably go to Denver and be their best player to start off. If he came to the Wolves he would be the 2nd best player to Butler and the Wolves have Towns and Wiggins as high end talents. Maybe he takes a lesser deal to join up with a team that would have the top end talent to really make a run. Will that happen? Idk. But that's the scenario I bet is being explored whether it's for an upgrade at PF or PG. folks we aren't a young team building anymore we have moved towards possible moves to become a contender. Our mindset needs to change and it's bizarre after all the years of promise disappointment and all that stuff. We are in an actual position to be one of those aggressive teams. Be ready for what could come. There may not be big moves but they will and should be explored. Dieng and Rubio haven't shown that they are good enough not to be improved on. If Houston is actually considering dumping guys like Anderson, Lou Williams and Beverly to get better we should be realistic about Rubio and Dieng.

[Lipoli390]

G and Towns don't work together. Their combination is a primary reason we suck so much on defense. Neither protects the rim at even an average level. There's a reason Belly was starting to close out games over G. The defense didn't take a hit and the offense added a better weapon. G is a backup big. 14 million is a little steep for a backup, but he can backup both spots so you can play Towns and whoever 68 minutes and give G the other 28. Then you don't have 30+ minutes of a bad defensive combination in Towns and G. You have about half that which is manageable.

What's the average level of rim protection in the NBA? Between them, Gorgui and KAT average 2.7 blocks per game. Cleveland's Love and Tristen Thompson average about 1 block per game combined. Golden State's trio of Green, Pachulia and McGee last season averaged 2.3 blocks per game. I'd love to have the shot-blocking of a Gobert or D. Jordan on the Wolves. But our starting bigs clearly aren't below average as rim protectors. They're definitely not as good as we need them to be defensively, but that's less a matter of rim protection than it is KAT being more aware and more committed on the defensive end. KAT needs to step it up in defending the pick and roll. He needs to take a charge every now and then. As our cornerstone star, KAT needs to step it up defensively or this team is not going to contend for a championship no matter which free agency you sign this summer to replace Gorgui at PF.

[kekgeek]

I got a question are we even allowed to trade gorgui. Technically we are signing a free agent in gorgui (with the extention) and it takes in effect on July 1. Are we allowed to trade him with no sign and trade in affect (so can't trade him till December like every other free agent signing)

Also what PF are we getting that is noticeably better than gorgui for less or a little more money?

What is his value around the league. Is gorgui for KOQ and Lee equal value. Or what about just Lee (then you sign Gibson or something like that.)

Whatever you posted didn't show up (at least on my device

[Monster]

I got a question are we even allowed to trade gorgui. Technically we are signing a free agent in gorgui (with the extention) and it takes in effect on July 1. Are we allowed to trade him with no sign and trade in affect (so can't trade him till December like every other free agent signing)

Also what PF are we getting that is noticeably better than gorgui for less or a little more money?

What is his value around the league. Is gorgui for KOQ and Lee equal value. Or what about just Lee (then you sign Gibson or something like that.)

Whatever you posted didn't show up (at least on my device

Sorry. Scroll back up I accidentally hit replay before i posted and then went back and edited it.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Keep in mind that of our starting 5, Dieng had the best defensive rating. He was also the only starter with a positive net rating.

I agree that Dieng, and Rubio for that matter, aren't "game changers" defensively - but they are both solid. The other thing about Dieng is that he showed some potential with the corner 3 last season that could be expanded further going forward.

KAT has to get better. Period. Besides Butler, he is the #1 factor in our defense improving next season.

[Monster]

Blocks are not the best indication of rim protection. I used to think Tyson chandler was overrated as a defensive player espcially rim protection because his blocks were not very high in number. He opened eyes winning a championship with the Mavs and his play in the olympics was just terrific.

Right now the pairing between Dieng and Towns not being good enough is on Towns not Dieng. If Towns figures it out that could change. It was interesting how Thibs said a few days ago something about how key Belly was to this team.

The reports sound more like they are looking at ways to replace Rubio than Dieng which makes sense as there are probably more options. They could also end up getting a pretty good backup PG or adding another solid wing player and have Butler be the playmaker down the stretch as it has been suggested in other threads.