monsterpile wrote:I'd be interested to here what guys people would like to see added as a starting PF with a bit of a different outlook with Butler here. There are only so many higher level options even if we did have the cap space.
Lip, why you so insistent on not even exploring better options at the PG and PF. I know you've been a Gorgui fan from the start and love his character, but you gotta admit he and Kat aren't a perfect match. I don't think the best way to build a bench would be throw 15-20 mill JJ. In most cases i feel it's mistake to spend mid level money on a bench players, obviously there are exceptions. Paradigm shift for myself, there many reasons why we've been bad for so many years, our roster construction was the main reason.
I like the starting PF we have -- whether it's Gorgui or KAT. It's time to switch forcus from what will be a very, very good starting lineup with Butler, Wiggins, KAT, Gorgui and Ricky. We need a bench!! Right now our bench is Cole Alrich, Tyus Jones and Belly -- and Belly's still in a boot coming off foot surgery. If we don't seriously upgrade and fill in our bench, the Butler acquisition will have been for naught.
Roster construction has been part of it but mostly it's been a lack of talent and in some cases the talent we did have got injured. I don't have a problem exploring options to improve the roster but just continuing to add talent would be good.
We absolutely should continue to add talent. We just need to be realistic about spending too much to replace already good starters like Gorgui and Ricky who complement our top starters Butler, KAT and Wiggins. My only point is that, given cap constrains and our extremely thin bench, we need to spend the money we have to build our bench with a couple really good rotation players. I don't want the Wolves to spend half our cap space on a replacement for Ricky or Gorgui.
monsterpile wrote:I'd be interested to here what guys people would like to see added as a starting PF with a bit of a different outlook with Butler here. There are only so many higher level options even if we did have the cap space.
I like the starting PF we have -- whether it's Gorgui or KAT. It's time to switch forcus from what will be a very, very good starting lineup with Butler, Wiggins, KAT, Gorgui and Ricky. We need a bench!! Right now our bench is Cole Alrich, Tyus Jones and Belly -- and Belly's still in a boot coming off foot surgery. If we don't seriously upgrade and fill in our bench, the Butler acquisition will have been for naught.
You guys know my position...the issue last year was not the quality of our bench, it was how they were employed. NBA role players need consistent minutes to reach their potential...you've all heard them say that...and they just didn't get that last year. Rush, Aldrich, and Hill have all had success as bench players with teams better than the Wolves...did they all coincidentally regress at the same time last year, or might it have had something to do with the minutes they were given? I don't know, but it sure seems odd to ne that they all became terrible players at the same time. Yes, go out and find some more bench role players that fill needs, but then you gotta play them...don't let them languish on the bench. Our starting five is so good that I wouldn't have a big problem backing them up with Tyus, Belly, Rush, and Aldrich for a 9-man rotation. Add a good shooter as a 10th man who is comfortable playing a reserve role (i.e. no chance of a starter like Reddick), and we will really have something going.
You have a lot more faith in Hill and Aldrich than I do. Hill, in particular, isn't someone you can rely on. There's a reason he doesn't last long anywhere he goes. A friend of mine in New York said D'Antoni couldn't stand him when he coached the Knicks. Said he was one of the laziest players he'd ever coached. Also note that Belly's coming off foot surgery. That's dicey. Now that we have Butler, we have to be smart about how we use our remaining $22 million in cap space. I think it would be a mistake to use half of that cap room simply to replace Ricky or Gorgui with a better starter. Assuming KAT and Wiggins take a leap forward defensively this season, we'll have 3 elite players in our starting line up and two vergy good complementary starters in Ricky Gorgui. That's plenty. Now it's time to focus on creating a strong rotation cadre of the bench. That means adding guys like Joe Ingles and either Mills or Collison. Then we'd have a robust rotation and some protection against injury.
First tier:
Jamychal Green - 4 years/52mil
Joe Ingles - 4 years/48mil
Gallinari - 4 years/56mil
James Johnson 4 years/48 mil
Second tier:
Jonathan Simmons - 3 years/21mil
Zach Randolph - 3 years/21 mil
CJ miles - 3 years/21 mil
Collison - 3 years/21 mil
Mitotic - 3 years/18 mil
Third tier:
DeAndre Liggins - 3 years/12mil
Ian Clark - 3 years/15 mil
Jodie Meeks - 3 years/15mil
Galloway - 3 years/12 mil
KJ McDaniels - 3 years/9 mil
Ronnie Price - 2 years/6mil
Randy Foye - 2 years/6mil
My bet is that we land 3-4 guys similar to tier 2 and 3 and avoid guys like tier 1.
I also would match Shabazz at anything less than 10 per.
I wonder if Redick would be willing to take somewhat of a discount if we gave him a longer deal and basically told him you're our 6th man for the next 4 years. He just turned 33, so a solid deal that takes him to 36 with some degree of certainty in his role could make a lot of sense. He's not going to forget how to shoot and his mere presence on the floor will open up space....tough to swallow paying him more than 12-15M though.
Crawford - the guy he shares minutes with at SG in LA took a 3X42M deal. What if we did 4X50M starting at $12M and going up from there. That would leave $10M to go after another solid role player before going after vet minimum and undrafted free agent types.
Q12543 wrote:I wonder if Redick would be willing to take somewhat of a discount if we gave him a longer deal and basically told him you're our 6th man for the next 4 years. He just turned 33, so a solid deal that takes him to 36 with some degree of certainty in his role could make a lot of sense. He's not going to forget how to shoot and his mere presence on the floor will open up space....tough to swallow paying him more than 12-15M though.
Crawford - the guy he shares minutes with at SG in LA took a 3X42M deal. What if we did 4X50M starting at $12M and going up from there. That would leave $10M to go after another solid role player before going after vet minimum and undrafted free agent types.
If reddick doesn't take less than 12 mil per then I pass. I'd offer 4/40 and lose no sleep if he went elsewhere. He plays one position, is 33, and though his shooting will stay, his average defense will not as he ages. Tyus and him as our backup guards would not be pretty.
lipoli390 wrote:
I'd be fine with that scenario. I just don't think we can afford to sign a starting PF and still keep Gorgui. If there were no salary cap and money were no object, then I'd pursue a better starting PF and keep Gorgui as a rotation guy. But it's not practical. By the way, I haven't seen any FA PFs to strike me as significantly better than Gorgui.
I just have this vision of a guy that is going to help KAT get the most out of him sooner rather than later. Millsap is that guy to me. I think you add Butler and Millsap to this team it goes from a team that gets pushed around to a team that is doing the pushing around.
lipoli390 wrote:
I'd be fine with that scenario. I just don't think we can afford to sign a starting PF and still keep Gorgui. If there were no salary cap and money were no object, then I'd pursue a better starting PF and keep Gorgui as a rotation guy. But it's not practical. By the way, I haven't seen any FA PFs to strike me as significantly better than Gorgui.
I just have this vision of a guy that is going to help KAT get the most out of him sooner rather than later. Millsap is that guy to me. I think you add Butler and Millsap to this team it goes from a team that gets pushed around to a team that is doing the pushing around.
I can't see how Millsap is an option at all. Yes, we could sign and trade with something like Aldrich/futures going back but then we are filling our bench with only exceptions. Plus, Rubio/Wiggins/Butler/Millsap/Towns together would be dreadful as far as spacing.
monsterpile wrote:I'd be interested to here what guys people would like to see added as a starting PF with a bit of a different outlook with Butler here. There are only so many higher level options even if we did have the cap space.
I like the starting PF we have -- whether it's Gorgui or KAT. It's time to switch forcus from what will be a very, very good starting lineup with Butler, Wiggins, KAT, Gorgui and Ricky. We need a bench!! Right now our bench is Cole Alrich, Tyus Jones and Belly -- and Belly's still in a boot coming off foot surgery. If we don't seriously upgrade and fill in our bench, the Butler acquisition will have been for naught.
You guys know my position...the issue last year was not the quality of our bench, it was how they were employed. NBA role players need consistent minutes to reach their potential...you've all heard them say that...and they just didn't get that last year. Rush, Aldrich, and Hill have all had success as bench players with teams better than the Wolves...did they all coincidentally regress at the same time last year, or might it have had something to do with the minutes they were given? I don't know, but it sure seems odd to ne that they all became terrible players at the same time. Yes, go out and find some more bench role players that fill needs, but then you gotta play them...don't let them languish on the bench. Our starting five is so good that I wouldn't have a big problem backing them up with Tyus, Belly, Rush, and Aldrich for a 9-man rotation. Add a good shooter as a 10th man who is comfortable playing a reserve role (i.e. no chance of a starter like Reddick), and we will really have something going.
You have a lot more faith in Hill and Aldrich than I do. Hill, in particular, isn't someone you can rely on. There's a reason he doesn't last long anywhere he goes. A friend of mine in New York said D'Antoni couldn't stand him when he coached the Knicks. Said he was one of the laziest players he'd ever coached. Also note that Belly's coming off foot surgery. That's dicey. Now that we have Butler, we have to be smart about how we use our remaining $22 million in cap space. I think it would be a mistake to use half of that cap room simply to replace Ricky or Gorgui with a better starter. Assuming KAT and Wiggins take a leap forward defensively this season, we'll have 3 elite players in our starting line up and two vergy good complementary starters in Ricky Gorgui. That's plenty. Now it's time to focus on creating a strong rotation cadre of the bench. That means adding guys like Joe Ingles and either Mills or Collison. Then we'd have a robust rotation and some protection against injury.
My point exactly, you add Patty Mills, you mind as well get out of Rubio's 14 million because there isn't a comparison on who you'd want on the court closing games between those two.
Let say you could wash your hands of Ricky, Gorgui, and Cole. Basically have a blank slate outside of the big 3. We have about 20-22 million with those three players. Those 3 make a combined 35 million roughly. So assuming you could trade those players without taking salary back, obviously not easy to do, and maybe it's impossible, but most people seem to think Ricky and Gorgui are on reasonable if not great deals. But let's say you did. You could have 55-57 million to spend. They aren't going offer 26 mil to Lowry or Millsap but you better believe Tibs is going to try and get them on a deal around 80 mil for 4 years while selling them on the idea we can win big here. You can't tell me it's not worth doing, and you can't tell me Tibs isn't going going to do that.
It's not unreasonable to try to clear another $35M in cap space IF we already have commitments in place from the FAs that we'd be targeting. So no, I wouldn't be surprised if Thibs explores this, as Butler sort of changes everything. But it's very difficult to go find multiple teams that can take on salary without giving any salary up AND at the same time line up commitments from the FA targets that fit into our window. That's why I think folks are focusing more on how we spend the $20-22M we have without further trades of existing players. It's a more practical reality.
TRKO wrote:Unless the Wolves get back something significant I don't see how trading Rubio makes the team better. It's going to cost around 20 million give or take in free agency to get a replacement PG. That restricts filling holes throughout the roster. I understand the desire to get a floor spacing shooter at PG, I just think filling the PF and bench positions to be much bigger need. Let's spend the cap space and resources there.
I don't see it costing nearly that much. There are a lot of PG's on the market and very few spots open for them to go. That's gonna drive the price down for most of them.
