Joe Ingles

[Monster]

I'll admit in this thread how many role players I have overrated at times. Some of them are good players but you start looking at how they got paid and even under the old CBA and then look at their production...for some guys it doesn't match up. Joe Ingles could end up being one of those guys that gets overpaid. He is a pretty versatile guy though and of course he can take and make 3's. What magic assets did the Jazz give up to get this nice player? Nothing but a roster spot. No big money no draft pick just claimed him from the Clippers after they signed him off a nice international tourney. It will get old me saying this but we need to find our own guys like this. We need to be able to target and develop guys into worthwhile players. I have some level of faith in Thibs and Layden to do this but it may take some time. I'm not saying don't pony up money for a guy like this but let's realize what we are likely doing paying for a solid guy that probably won't get better and hopefully is a bridge to another similar and hopefully cheaper player. Again if we can't do that its bad news.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I'm not as interested in Green as in Ingles. I watched Green 6-8 times last year (picked him up for fantasy rebounds when he was hot). He's good, a better rebounder than Ingles for sure, but his 3 point shooting and playmaking are not as good, and I don't think he's as versatile a defender.

Ingles also hits threes all around the arc which opens the floor more, he gets up almost twice as many 3s per minute, and he doesn't take too many long 2s, while Green is a corner specialist who takes a few too many long 2s for my taste.

Check the shot charts.

Ingles
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2016-2017/player/1845/joe-ingles/shotchart/

Green
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2016-2017/player/6552/jamychal-green/shotchart/

Johnson
http://vorped.com/1-nba/2016-2017/player/1129/james-johnson/shotchart/

I've also added James Johnson's shot chart (another guy I watched a couple times because he was on my fantasy team for a few weeks). Johnson had a great year and contributes in a lot of ways like Ingles, but he is not as good a 3 point shooter as Ingles, or Green for that matter, and at this point, we need 3 point shooting more than anything. So I like those other guys, but I think Ingles is distinctly better for us than those guys.

Also, can anybody explain to me exactly how we could use Utah's cap situation and Hayward's free agency against them, if at all? My sense is that we would want to make Ingles an offer right away in free agency that would be a reasonable deal for him but could put them in danger of going over the cap if they resigned Hayward at the max. But I don't understand the cap works well enough to know exactly how that would work, and I know there are other moving pieces because they have other players on the roster.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

I'll admit in this thread how many role players I have overrated at times. Some of them are good players but you start looking at how they got paid and even under the old CBA and then look at their production...for some guys it doesn't match up. Joe Ingles could end up being one of those guys that gets overpaid. He is a pretty versatile guy though and of course he can take and make 3's. What magic assets did the Jazz give up to get this nice player? Nothing but a roster spot. No big money no draft pick just claimed him from the Clippers after they signed him off a nice international tourney. It will get old me saying this but we need to find our own guys like this. We need to be able to target and develop guys into worthwhile players. I have some level of faith in Thibs and Layden to do this but it may take some time. I'm not saying don't pony up money for a guy like this but let's realize what we are likely doing paying for a solid guy that probably won't get better and hopefully is a bridge to another similar and hopefully cheaper player. Again if we can't do that its bad news.

First, I totally agree with the part in bold. One of the great things about teams like the Spurs is how they've been able to do that more often than others. I like the idea of trying to sign a waived or foreign guy like Ingles for the vet minimum as long-term, low-risk gambles. But that doesn't rule out signing a more expensive guy you can count on right now.

I totally endorse your idea of trying to develop young talent, particularly now that we have a specifically affiliated "G-Leauge" team. But picking up guys like Ingles out of nowhere and having them turn out to be very good players is not common. Ingles, Covington, Jonathan Simmons. That's about the only 3 guys I can think of in the last couple years out of the dozens of players who got picked up and barely got off the bench or were cut. And even if you get a good player, that process can take awhile for guys to develop--even veterans like Ingles or Livingston took a few years. We could sign some guys who get waived by other teams or from overseas and hope they turn out to be good, but the odds of that happening are low and even if you get lucky the process could be a couple years. There's usually a reason those guys get waived.

In the meantime, our clock is ticking now to become a real contender. If we want to keep Butler and attract future free agents, we need to be good soon. Taking gambles on waived players and foreign signings in hopes of getting a good player on a good contract should be secondary to making sure we get a good player who fits and who we can count on.

Signing a guy like Ingles now is a sensible decision. First, he's not a big name free agent, so the contract won't be nearly as high as those top tier free agents. Second, his impact doesn't show up in overall stats as much, and guys like that generally sign more team-friendly contracts. Third, you'll be paying a market price (and a little more than if he were a UFA) knowing he's a good player, but that's what we need right now--a guy who we know is a good player and fits a need (actually, lots of needs). I'm not saying throw Allen Crabbe money at him, because I know that can really come back to haunt you. And again, I totally support your idea of developing guys on the cheap. But if we can find a price that is a little more than Utah can pay because of the Hayward situation and yet a fair price for Ingles, that's a great deal for us.

[Monster]

I'll admit in this thread how many role players I have overrated at times. Some of them are good players but you start looking at how they got paid and even under the old CBA and then look at their production...for some guys it doesn't match up. Joe Ingles could end up being one of those guys that gets overpaid. He is a pretty versatile guy though and of course he can take and make 3's. What magic assets did the Jazz give up to get this nice player? Nothing but a roster spot. No big money no draft pick just claimed him from the Clippers after they signed him off a nice international tourney. It will get old me saying this but we need to find our own guys like this. We need to be able to target and develop guys into worthwhile players. I have some level of faith in Thibs and Layden to do this but it may take some time. I'm not saying don't pony up money for a guy like this but let's realize what we are likely doing paying for a solid guy that probably won't get better and hopefully is a bridge to another similar and hopefully cheaper player. Again if we can't do that its bad news.

First, I totally agree with the part in bold. One of the great things about teams like the Spurs is how they've been able to do that more often than others. I like the idea of trying to sign a waived or foreign guy like Ingles for the vet minimum as long-term, low-risk gambles. But that doesn't rule out signing a more expensive guy you can count on right now.

I totally endorse your idea of trying to develop young talent, particularly now that we have a specifically affiliated "G-Leauge" team. But picking up guys like Ingles out of nowhere and having them turn out to be very good players is not common. Ingles, Covington, Jonathan Simmons. That's about the only 3 guys I can think of in the last couple years out of the dozens of players who got picked up and barely got off the bench or were cut. And even if you get a good player, that process can take awhile for guys to develop--even veterans like Ingles or Livingston took a few years. We could sign some guys who get waived by other teams or from overseas and hope they turn out to be good, but the odds of that happening are low and even if you get lucky the process could be a couple years. There's usually a reason those guys get waived.

In the meantime, our clock is ticking now to become a real contender. If we want to keep Butler and attract future free agents, we need to be good soon. Taking gambles on waived players and foreign signings in hopes of getting a good player on a good contract should be secondary to making sure we get a good player who fits and who we can count on.

Signing a guy like Ingles now is a sensible decision. First, he's not a big name free agent, so the contract won't be nearly as high as those top tier free agents. Second, his impact doesn't show up in overall stats as much, and guys like that generally sign more team-friendly contracts. Third, you'll be paying a market price (and a little more than if he were a UFA) knowing he's a good player, but that's what we need right now--a guy who we know is a good player and fits a need (actually, lots of needs). I'm not saying throw Allen Crabbe money at him, because I know that can really come back to haunt you. And again, I totally support your idea of developing guys on the cheap. But if we can find a price that is a little more than Utah can pay because of the Hayward situation and yet a fair price for Ingles, that's a great deal for us.

We are in agreement.

Just to be clear I'm not saying some of the guys that are cheap are all flyers. Some of them are guys that have had some legit success in the league and are undervalued. I remember Lip was banging the table for us to sign D. Carrol from Memphis. Luc was a vet min guy for the Clippers. Aminu was a cheap signing for Dallas. Another sorta out of nowhere player...I wanted Seth Curry last summer. The Spurs signed Deadmon for cheap.

You are right not all those deals work out and we can't just take flyers on guys and hope they work out. He need to sign some guys you can feel like you know what you are on a get. If the Wolves end up spending a lot of cash to get one or 2 guys in one way or another signing cheap dudes may be the only way to fill out the roster. It's time we found some cheap fill in the gap players that the top teams are able to do. You may not build your roster with the expectation those guys are going to be key contributors but I think we need to expect this franchise to hit on a couple players in that mold. It's a big part of success being able to develop those players.

[SameOldNudityDrew]

Now that it sounds like Millsap's out of the running, this thread becomes a bit more relevant.

How much do you guys think Utah would match for Ingles? How could the Hayward situation affect that?

[Lipoli390]

Redick's gone. If Millsap is also off the table, then Ingles seems like the best target available. Not sure why we'd have to overpay. We're shaping up as a better team than the Jazz - much better if Hayward leaves. And he'd be a major rotation player here.

[60WinTim]

Redick's gone. If Millsap is also off the table, then Ingles seems like the best target available. Not sure why we'd have to overpay. We're shaping up as a better team than the Jazz - much better if Hayward leaves. And he'd be a major rotation player here.

Well, the reason we would have to overpay is to keep Utah from matching.

[TheFuture]

Throwing an offer at a restricted player at this point would be a mistake. Would lock up that $ for the 3 days The other team has before they need to make a decision.

Ibaka is still out there if Millsap doesn't work.

[Monster]

Based on the reports about the offers he may have...Let someone else overpay for Ingles and sign a solid player for half the salary when teams don't have much money left.

[Lipoli390]

Redick's gone. If Millsap is also off the table, then Ingles seems like the best target available. Not sure why we'd have to overpay. We're shaping up as a better team than the Jazz - much better if Hayward leaves. And he'd be a major rotation player here.

Well, the reason we would have to overpay is to keep Utah from matching.

Whoops. Forgot he's a restricted FA. Never mind. :)