Just some stats about the NBA's worst franchise.

[thedoper]

Thanks for reminding us how bad things are Abe. Happy holidays!!

He's a scrooge isn't he?

I was thinking of making him a scrooge Avatar with a McCants jersey as a Christmas gift.

[Monster]

The comical thing is that Thibodeau is comparable to Popovich both in basketball knowledge, ideology, and sideline antics -- way more than people would like to admit.

A huge difference is that Pop has always had a front office and ownership group that trusted him and took his input very seriously. I maintain the belief that this was not the case for Thibodeau in Chicago, and so do a lot of Bulls fans that I've interacted with.

A simple Google search would land you a link to a video of Popovich yelling at Danny Green to "shut the fuck up" after a crucial late fourth quarter mistake a year or so ago, I think. Green fouled when Pop said not to, they could have played straight up, Pop got in his ass about it. Dear, God, the reactions on this board would be insane if Thibs had done that to LaVine after he failed to successfully inbound the ball on the last possession of the Knicks game or Bjelica ever.

I'm not sure I am anti-Thibs per se, but there is no question the same exact group of guys Mitchell had are underperforming.

And since Taylor made a massive commitment to Thibs, he's not going anywhere. Therefore, if the players don't improve, guess what's going to change? Thibs will need to get his kind of players in here that can actually grasp defensive concepts and then have the mental discipline and "want to" to execute.....and don't mind getting barked at constantly.

It's too early to speculate too much on next offseason, but I could see fairly major changes in store if this group doesn't start to progress.

I hope we eventually all look back at the first 20 games and laugh at our collective impatience and rush to judgment.

It's sort of amusing that people were worried that a Thibs approach was going to bring short term success and have long term consequences. From many of the things I have heard and read from some legit media Thibs has pulled back quite a bit from what he has done before giving guys day's off more film more than grinding them. He has been playing younger/long termed signed guys over the vets unlike the conventional wisdom has said he would do. Basically Thibs is treating this team more as a developmental approach than a quick playoffs or bust type of a deal. Is he vocal on the sidelines working hard to win? Sure but I don't see him selling out by any of his moves either by his coaching or the collective front office moves. Maybe that won't last but the irony is that many people were worried about the quick fix and now that Thibs is taking a more careful approach people are burying him for not winning enough. :) it's 20 games in to the rebuild of a franchise when it comes to the front office and coaching staff. It's gonna take some time to see how this is all gonna work out. People are gonna get tired of hearing that because it's been said for how many rebuilds...but it doesn't make it less true.

[Monster]

Thanks for reminding us how bad things are Abe. Happy holidays!!

He's a scrooge isn't he?

I was thinking of making him a scrooge Avatar with a McCants jersey as a Christmas gift.

I'd like to see that!

Reading these stats both brings a level of realism about the franchise and makes me just laugh because it's really so terrible it's actually comical.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

The comical thing is that Thibodeau is comparable to Popovich both in basketball knowledge, ideology, and sideline antics -- way more than people would like to admit.

A huge difference is that Pop has always had a front office and ownership group that trusted him and took his input very seriously. I maintain the belief that this was not the case for Thibodeau in Chicago, and so do a lot of Bulls fans that I've interacted with.

A simple Google search would land you a link to a video of Popovich yelling at Danny Green to "shut the fuck up" after a crucial late fourth quarter mistake a year or so ago, I think. Green fouled when Pop said not to, they could have played straight up, Pop got in his ass about it. Dear, God, the reactions on this board would be insane if Thibs had done that to LaVine after he failed to successfully inbound the ball on the last possession of the Knicks game or Bjelica ever.

Cam, while I don't disagree that the relationship between Thibs and the front office in Chi-town was terrible and likely more the fault of management, I really don't see the similarity between Pop and Thibs on the sidelines. The Green clip is notoriously funny (as Pop so often is) but you earn the right to have moments like that when you have a little more balance between your positive and negative reinforcement like Thibs does...Green deserved that, and I'm sure most of us here would have gotten a kick out of it and supported it. I'll continue to say you really have to go to a game or two to really appreciate how unusual (and I would say harmful) Thibs' in-game style is. Just ask Lip who sits within 15 feet of him...he'll be happy to share his impressions. I have great admiration for Thibs as a basketball guy...he's less entertaining than Pop, but sounds just as knowledgeable...but their styles couldn't be any more different.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Just wanted to offer an update on this thread:

Memphis has now won 6 straight games without Mike Conley. And Chandler Parsons. And Vince Carter. And Parsons' replacement, James Ennis.

The Wolves last 6-game win streak was in 2004.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Just wanted to offer an update on this thread:

Memphis has now won 6 straight games without Mike Conley. And Chandler Parsons. And Vince Carter. And Parsons' replacement, James Ennis.

The Wolves last 6-game win streak was in 2004.

That's very impressive, and it sucks for Minnesota fans, but we can't ignore Marc Gasol, Zach Randolph, and Tony Allen. Those three specifically are the ones who built the culture there -- that's not a shot at Conley either. As long as they're suiting up, the brand of basketball they play will remain the same. They grind you down.

[Monster]

Just wanted to offer an update on this thread:

Memphis has now won 6 straight games without Mike Conley. And Chandler Parsons. And Vince Carter. And Parsons' replacement, James Ennis.

The Wolves last 6-game win streak was in 2004.

I was listening to a Wolfson podcast last week and he had JB Bickerstaff who is the associate head coach for Fizdale. Apparently they have been friends for many years and spent time together in the past working out different players and stuff. I had no idea they had any connection. I believe Bickerstaff has a pretty good reputation as a defensive coach. Is all that terribly significant? Idk maybe not but it was interesting.

Looking over that franchise I notice they owe 2 first rounders which COULD become unprotected. It seems more likely at this point they give up those picks in 2017 and 2019 they way they stay competitive.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Memphis' core guys are Conley, Gasol, Randolph, and Allen. Let's see how this roster evolved:

07/08 - Mike Conley (Rookie) - 22 wins - Team Drating ranked 28th
08/09 - Conley, Gasol (Rookie) - 24 wins - Team Drating ranked 21st
09/10 - Conley, Gasol, Zach Randolph (trade) - 40 wins - Team Drating ranked 19th
10/11 - Core group complete: Conley, Gasol, Randolph, Allen (FA) - 46 wins - Team Drating ranked 9th
11/12 - 41 wins - Team Drating ranked 7th
12/13 - 56 wins - Team Drating ranked 2nd
etc.

...has been a top 10 defensive team every year since 2010/11 except last year, where their core group was hit by serious injuries.

It's an interesting evolution. They were not very good defensively until Conley's 4th year/Gasol's 3rd year, and Gasol was an older rookie at 24. Then they added Randolph via trade (for Quentin Richardson) and Allen via free agency.

It's amazing to see how much churn they've had around these four, both in terms of coaches and players. They missed on a LOT of other draft picks (Mayo, Thabeet, etc.). But man, they nailed the Conley pick and then hit on just enough other moves to eventually form a core of guys that they built their team and identity around. Everything else is seemingly interchangeable.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Notice how Memphis made moves to bring in legitimate veteran talent to surround their budding stars? That shouldn't be overlooked. It's something most successful teams do when they're building their team. Not veterans who are in their late 30's with little left to give, not veterans who haven't really done shit throughout their career, but veterans who can actually make a difference on the court.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Notice how Memphis made moves to bring in legitimate veteran talent to surround their budding stars? That shouldn't be overlooked. It's something most successful teams do when they're building their team. Not veterans who are in their late 30's with little left to give, not veterans who haven't really done shit throughout their career, but veterans who can actually make a difference on the court.

Agreed, they aren't just "mentors". And if anything, Randolph was the opposite of a mentor at that time, having been a part of the notorious "Jail Blazers" squad and hardly known for great defense. However, Allen and Randolph were major contributors on the court. Also, Memphis is not exactly a sexy coastal franchise, yet they were able to get a couple of guys that fit into what they were building. Aaaaaand both joined the team while it was still building. They weren't already good.

By the way, Sacramento has tried a similar approach and has fallen flat. They nailed their franchise pick with Cousins, then brought Gay in (from Memphis!), then drafted McLemore, and eventually tried to blend Rondo and Afflalo into the mix. None of it's worked......Why? In all these years, they have always been in the bottom third of the league defensively, just like the Wolves.