Q12543 wrote:Khans and Cam, You may be absolutely right about the players being soft and fragile. So what do you suggest Thibs does about it? If he isn't able to get through to them and he's not willing to change his own style, then what?
Andrew Wiggins: "We've got to find it within ourselves. There's nothing that the coach can do. There's nothing that the trainers can do. It's just the players. We've got to find it within ourselves."
I think that's what it comes down to. Thibs altering his scheme or changing lineups won't necessarily make the players stay engaged and execute. That's part of being a professional basketball player. Our guys need to become that and play for 48 minutes each night.
What's insane is people even considering Taylor will buy Tibs out. Cmon gentleman, not even in the realm of possibility. Development isn't linear, it's not you win 20 games one year you have to win 30 the next year. I truly believe these struggles could be good for them. They obviously needed to be knocked down a bit, let's see how they respond.
This team played two months of unwatchable basketball last year and turned it around somewhat. The Miami Heat didn't live up to expectations that first year and especially the first two months of that first season. It not as simple as we added new, supposedly better players we are going to be better, our 20 year olds have 3 more months of experience, they are going to be all stars now. This league is tough. I'm dissapointed in the start of this year but I'm not throwing the blame on Tibs. Hopefully Tibs will change some things up, I'm sure he will, but the players need to suck it up and play through this. I know it's Difficult for TeamRicky to place any blame on his beloved PG, it's gotta be Tibs fault he's shooting below his already historically worst shooting percentage, that he can't beat anyone off the dribble, Kat can't make a pass to save his life, etc...
Our players definitely need to be mentally tougher and more consistently engaged, especially on the defensive end. And they should respect their coach. As far as Thibs' yelling, if we were winning, I don't think we'd be complaining as much.
At the same time, Thibs seems to be unable to connect with these guys by simply bellowing at them. Personally, I don't like that style of leadership, although great leaders like Pop can be a bit salty with their players. Since he's also the GM, Thibs either needs to 1) get rid of guys that don't fit the plan or 2) adjust his approach a bit in order to get the players to adjust theirs. I think he should take the long view and try #2 first, but if that doesn't work, look into #1.
If it comes to it, the guy I'd move would be Wiggins for many of the reasons Lip mentioned. I said over the summer I'd trade Wiggins for Butler in a snap, and most here dismissed that. The Bulls probably wouldn't do that now, but I think that move would have made us a much better defensive team overnight and could have really galvanized LaVine and Towns to realize that they need to play with a killer instinct on both ends every night if they want to be truly great. I'm so tired of hearing all about this team's potential and then watching us lose night after night.
But leadership and mentality are only 2 of our major problems (although player mentality certainly relates to another point I'll mention here). Most people agreed there were three things we needed to fix this offseason: 1) defense, 2) three point shooting, and 3) ball movement. We've improved #2, but somehow actually seem to have taken a step back in #1 and #3. Defense starts with mental toughness and willingness to work hard on D, so that's obviously suffered on our team. And in terms of #3 in particular, we're turning into a one-on-one drive-and-kick team instead of a team like the Spurs or the Warriors who are all constantly moving without the ball. On those good teams, the guy with the ball almost always passes it (if he doesn't shoot it) right after catching it and he always has good targets because everybody is moving without the ball. Too often on our team, the only guy moving is the guy with the ball, and everybody else is standing still watching him waiting for the bailout pass if the guy doesn't take what is usually a tough shot. That right there, our defense, our lack of toughness, and the lack of connection between our coach and our players are the 4 things that are killing us this year, IMO.
About a week ago I said it really comes down to two things: 1) Ball movement on offense 2) Maintaining intensity and focus on defense for 48 minutes. Nothing has happened in the past week that makes me think these two things are not the key, and improvement in each area would make a dramatic difference. I'll add a 3rd, albeit less important factor. When you do get a defensive stop, if it ever happens, push the ball and take advantage of our athletic gifts. We play way too much half court offense to suit our strengths.
I tend to agree with Kahns on his point of maintaining continuity going into next season. If there was one change I might advocate, it would be trading Ricky for some beef up front. I don't think we would miss Ricky much at all, and the handwriting is on the wall in regard to his future as our starting point guard. If we could get a player for him that could start at the 5, I would move KAT to the three, Wig to the two, and I'd give Zach another chance at PG. Zach is showing me that he can probably play the one in this offense. Dunn's minutes would increase, and Zach would still get plenty of time on the wing. But that would make us extremely long and benefit us on both ends of the floor. And the idea that we are going to bail on Wig at this point is just fucking stupid. I'm sorry, but those saying it need a reality check. If you want to keep rebuilding through the next decade, you make a stupid fucking move like that.
I do believe the biggest culprits with the ball movement problems are KAT and Wig. It really needs to start with them. If they buy in it will become contagious, and I think we can finally start to move forward. And the intensity on defense is on everyone. It's hard to play D for 24 seconds, but you simply have to will yourself to get there. And you can't let problems at the offensive end take you out of your defensive rhythm. I think you would be surprised how thin the line is between what we are seeing today, and what we could be seeing in a month. I'd like to see the players get together and buy in to what the coach is telling them. Just a little improvement in the two big areas I see could provide a great elixir for our problems.
khans2k5 wrote:I really don't care if the players hate Thibs. He's not there to be their friend, he's there to coach them. If you want him off your back then grow a pair and stop playing like dog shit. Towns has been terrible defensively this year so him mocking Thibs is a sign of immaturity. It's time to wake up an realize this is hard and can't be done just fucking around all game not trying hard and not doing the right things every possession. These guys have been spoon fed praise their whole lives, but are showing their true colors under difficult circumstances. Thibs made bench players look competent in Chicago dragging majorly injured teams to the playoffs year after year. It's not him. It's these soft players who don't want to play hard all game or on certain ends of the court or after certain possessions. Grow up and execute what he says. They haven't won shit in this league and they don't know how to win in this league so start paying attention and doing what the guy who once snagged a 1 seed from Lebron is telling you or get out. I'm tired of people siding with the players who have zero track record in this league over the coach who has done a lot in different roles across the league. These players haven't accomplished anything and haven't earned the right to side with them over the coach.
Kahns - They don't have to like him. But they have to respect and connect with him. The head coach sets the tone. A negative attitude at the top of any organization negatively affects the entire organization's performance. Of course, the players are ultimately responsible for how they play. But it's the epitome of denial to give the head coach a pass, especially under the current circumstances. The facts are indisputable. The Wolves are underperforming in ever statistical category compared to last season, especially late last season but actually the entire season. Yet, there have been only three significant changes from last season:
1. The core young guys are older and more experienced, which should make the team better.'
2. We've added bench strength in the form of players who have performed well as bench players elsewhere and who are still in their prime years, which should make the team better
3. Thibs replaced Sam Mitchell as our head coach.
How can we possibly hold Thibs responsible for the teams' pathetic season so far (about 25% into the season)?? How silly of those who would do so.
Those 3 bullet points are succinctly stated and indisputable...anyone think Lip might be a lawyer ;) ?
Lip, I wasn't surprised to not see a game report when I got home last night and saw the 27 point loss. Maybe you can lose to GS or the Cavs by 27 on the road, but Detroit at home? Completely unacceptable. Having to write a game report last night would have been torture (or maybe therapeutic?) Thanks for the insights about the behavior of some of our players last night. I don't see the eye rolls or pained expressions of our players when I watch on TV, but it is so evident when I am at the game...my son-in-law had my tickets last night, and commented on some of the same things you mentioned, and more. I'm not going to disparage the Thibs supporters on this board who want to pin the blame for this year on the players because they are generally good basketball minds entitled to their opinions, but it does seem to me that they are mostly forming their opinions from TV and box scores, while the Thibs detractors are in the arena and able to observe first hand what you don't always see on TV. Local talk shows here are filled with season ticket holders too, and I'm hearing an increasing amount of wrath directed toward this coach...he needs to change, or we are looking at a 16-win season.
And while I don't completely discount the prevailing theme of the Thibsters that this team is soft and doesn't play hard, the question that still hasn't been answered to my satisfaction is this: Why weren't we calling out these same guys for being soft and not playing hard when they were winning half of their games under Sam the last half of the year? An entire team doesn't change its character overnight without some kind of outside influence, and the only major change in this franchise from the end of last year is the coach. To ignore his role in this year's disaster is the epitome of denial.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I tend to agree with Kahns on his point of maintaining continuity going into next season. If there was one change I might advocate, it would be trading Ricky for some beef up front. I don't think we would miss Ricky much at all, and the handwriting is on the wall in regard to his future as our starting point guard. If we could get a player for him that could start at the 5, I would move KAT to the three, Wig to the two, and I'd give Zach another chance at PG. Zach is showing me that he can probably play the one in this offense. Dunn's minutes would increase, and Zach would still get plenty of time on the wing. But that would make us extremely long and benefit us on both ends of the floor. And the idea that we are going to bail on Wig at this point is just fucking stupid. I'm sorry, but those saying it need a reality check. If you want to keep rebuilding through the next decade, you make a stupid fucking move like that.
I think you said you'd be in favor of going after Jahlil Okafor. I know you're not in favor of Greg Monroe being swapped for Rubio, but who else did you have in mind?
CoolBreeze44 wrote:I tend to agree with Kahns on his point of maintaining continuity going into next season. If there was one change I might advocate, it would be trading Ricky for some beef up front. I don't think we would miss Ricky much at all, and the handwriting is on the wall in regard to his future as our starting point guard. If we could get a player for him that could start at the 5, I would move KAT to the three, Wig to the two, and I'd give Zach another chance at PG. Zach is showing me that he can probably play the one in this offense. Dunn's minutes would increase, and Zach would still get plenty of time on the wing. But that would make us extremely long and benefit us on both ends of the floor. And the idea that we are going to bail on Wig at this point is just fucking stupid. I'm sorry, but those saying it need a reality check. If you want to keep rebuilding through the next decade, you make a stupid fucking move like that.
I think you said you'd be in favor of going after Jahlil Okafor. I know you're not in favor of Greg Monroe being swapped for Rubio, but who else did you have in mind?
I really haven't given it that much thought Cam. I think the Okafor trade would be a fit for both teams. Any other possibilities you see?
"were winning half of their games under Sam the last half of the year?"
Lol. Pretty small sample size. We all had optimism heading into this year, and rightfully so. I'm gonna add one work. NEARLY, we didn't win half of our games the last half of last year. We played close to .500 for the last 35 games. My whole thing is, it's just way way to quick to call out a head coach and say he needs to be gone like a lot of people. Is it possible Tibs isn't the right fit here, sure but it's just a little quick for me, especially one with a track record.
Q12543 wrote:Khans and Cam, You may be absolutely right about the players being soft and fragile. So what do you suggest Thibs does about it? If he isn't able to get through to them and he's not willing to change his own style, then what?
I think it's just going to take time for them to break down and then be built up again. It's not something with an instant fix. I think this year is a reality check for everyone and that will hopefully drive them to work hard during the summer and come back next year much better. Hopefully this year wakes everyone up to realize it's hard to win in this league and you can't take plays off. I wouldn't look to do make any major moves except maybe dealing Ricky and/or at least trying for a big name in free agency, otherwise I'm not gonna panic unless we are playing the same this time next year. 3 coaches in 3 years is a lot for young players to succeed in. We need an off-season of no front office moves and no core changes to let continuity set in and then decide if it's good enough.
These guys worked their asses off last summer (at least the big three did) and I'm sure they will again this offseason.
From a continuity perspective, I actually think as players these guys have had quite a bit of continuity. Our entire starting 5 and three out of the four bench guys have played for only one NBA franchise. To me that is even more important that coaching continuity.
I certainly agree we shouldn't do anything rash in the short term. But if they don't show improvement within the context of this season, then Thibs needs to get some guys here that actually listen to him and play with some heart. Because he's not going anywhere.
