Playing for Thibs

[Coolbreeze44]

If you play a few years under coach Thibs, is your basketball age greater than it normally would be? Evidence would seem to suggest it. Deng, Noah, Rose, possibly Butler all seem to have had relatively short primes.

This brings up two main points for me:

1) I don't want our good young players to spend too many years playing for this guy. This year would be enough as far as I'm concerned.

2) We need to be ready to move on from Butler quickly. If/when he breaks down again that should be a sure sign his prime is ending and we absolutely must get assets for him to aid in the next rebuild around Towns and Wiggins. He was brought here to win now and win quickly. He was great when he played this year, but we might have seen the best of him. Next year is huge for him as far as his continued usefulness to the Wolves.

You may not like to hear these points, but they are the harsh reality.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I understand where both points are coming from, but I have more faith in rolling the dice on an All-NBA player's durability than I do on Andrew Wiggins getting to that level of play. That is also the harsh reality.

Also, how do you think Towns would react to this franchise trading Butler away next year? That move alone might break good ties with him moving forward and we can't risk that.

[Coolbreeze44]

I understand where both points are coming from, but I have more faith in rolling the dice on an All-NBA player's durability than I do on Andrew Wiggins getting to that level of play. That is also the harsh reality.

Also, how do you think Towns would react to this franchise trading Butler away next year? That move alone might break good ties with him moving forward and we can't risk that.

I think Towns would be comfortable being the man on this team. I don't see that being a problem at all. He's twice as important as a declining Butler. Wiggins is more important too. This team is not going to contend for a title in the next couple years.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I understand where both points are coming from, but I have more faith in rolling the dice on an All-NBA player's durability than I do on Andrew Wiggins getting to that level of play. That is also the harsh reality.

Also, how do you think Towns would react to this franchise trading Butler away next year? That move alone might break good ties with him moving forward and we can't risk that.

I think Towns would be comfortable being the man on this team. I don't see that being a problem at all. He's twice as important as a declining Butler. Wiggins is more important too. This team is not going to contend for a title in the next couple years.

Towns is being groomed to be the man on this team, but right now it's definitely Butler and I haven't seen enough improvement defensively from Towns to say he can lead us to a top-four seed on his own.

Additionally, Butler's game itself hasn't declined whatsoever. If anything, he was better this year primarily because of his improvements from three. I think his game can last because it's based on intelligence, skill, and power over athleticism and explosiveness. His body is another thing, but in today's game guys are going to get beat up after a certain age unless they're just freaks of nature. I'm okay with that risk, personally.

Wouldn't trading Butler be counterproductive to what we're trying to do at this point? If we were going to deal him after just two or three seasons, then we should have never traded LaVine and other assets to get him. I think at this point we're too invested to do what you're suggesting.

[Coolbreeze44]

I understand where both points are coming from, but I have more faith in rolling the dice on an All-NBA player's durability than I do on Andrew Wiggins getting to that level of play. That is also the harsh reality.

Also, how do you think Towns would react to this franchise trading Butler away next year? That move alone might break good ties with him moving forward and we can't risk that.

I think Towns would be comfortable being the man on this team. I don't see that being a problem at all. He's twice as important as a declining Butler. Wiggins is more important too. This team is not going to contend for a title in the next couple years.

Towns is being groomed to be the man on this team, but right now it's definitely Butler and I haven't seen enough improvement defensively from Towns to say he can lead us to a top-four seed on his own.

Additionally, Butler's game itself hasn't declined whatsoever. If anything, he was better this year primarily because of his improvements from three. I think his game can last because it's based on intelligence, skill, and power over athleticism and explosiveness. His body is another thing, but in today's game guys are going to get beat up after a certain age unless they're just freaks of nature. I'm okay with that risk, personally.

Wouldn't trading Butler be counterproductive to what we're trying to do at this point? If we were going to deal him after just two or three seasons, then we should have never traded LaVine and other assets to get him. I think at this point we're too invested to do what you're suggesting.

I'm sure you're aware of this, but here is Butlers games played over the last 5 seasons:

56-76-67-65-67

That's basically an average of one game missed every 5 games. You would have to be really fortunate to see that trend reversed as he gets older, especially after a significant knee injury. It's much more likely to get worse.

I'm not saying we look to trade the guy now or even next year. I'm just saying that the trend with guys who played for Thibs is that their performance falls off a cliff when they get into their 30's. We can't be left holding the bag on a guy we paid so much for. He relies a lot more on athleticism than you are giving him credit for, especially on defense.

[Lipoli390]

I understand where both points are coming from, but I have more faith in rolling the dice on an All-NBA player's durability than I do on Andrew Wiggins getting to that level of play. That is also the harsh reality.

Also, how do you think Towns would react to this franchise trading Butler away next year? That move alone might break good ties with him moving forward and we can't risk that.

I think Towns would be comfortable being the man on this team. I don't see that being a problem at all. He's twice as important as a declining Butler. Wiggins is more important too. This team is not going to contend for a title in the next couple years.

Towns is being groomed to be the man on this team, but right now it's definitely Butler and I haven't seen enough improvement defensively from Towns to say he can lead us to a top-four seed on his own.

Additionally, Butler's game itself hasn't declined whatsoever. If anything, he was better this year primarily because of his improvements from three. I think his game can last because it's based on intelligence, skill, and power over athleticism and explosiveness. His body is another thing, but in today's game guys are going to get beat up after a certain age unless they're just freaks of nature. I'm okay with that risk, personally.

Wouldn't trading Butler be counterproductive to what we're trying to do at this point? If we were going to deal him after just two or three seasons, then we should have never traded LaVine and other assets to get him. I think at this point we're too invested to do what you're suggesting.

I'm sure you're aware of this, but here is Butlers games played over the last 5 seasons:

56-76-67-65-67

That's basically an average of one game missed every 5 games. You would have to be really fortunate to see that trend reversed as he gets older, especially after a significant knee injury. It's much more likely to get worse.

I'm not saying we look to trade the guy now or even next year. I'm just saying that the trend with guys who played for Thibs is that their performance falls off a cliff when they get into their 30's. We can't be left holding the bag on a guy we paid so much for. He relies a lot more on athleticism than you are giving him credit for, especially on defense.

Cool -- In my case you're preaching to the choir. Like you, I'm not advocating that we trade Butler. As you know, when there was talk of trading for Butler but before the Wolves actually traded for him, I expressed concern about his history of regularly missing a significant chunk of games throughout his career. Hard to know for sure how much of that is attributable to Thibs and how much is just Butler. But there does seem to be a correlation between Thibs and players he coaches wearing down sooner than you'd think. We'll never know for sure, but it's a legitimate concern.

The bottom line is that this team can't take any options off the table if its serious about contending for a championship. I love how Butler has elevated the Wolves' play this season and I'm a big fan of him as a player and person. If I were the Wolves PBO, I'd have to be blown away by a trade offer to part with Jimmy. As I see it, we wouldn't have to worry at all about going forward with Butler longer term if we had Bazemore or someone comparable on our roster instead of Gorgui. I just wish we had a truly elite front office who we could count on add a Bazemore caliber wing through free agency, the draft or a smart trade. Unfortunately, this front office couldn't even land Illyasova or Bellinelli and has left us with the 37-year old defensively challenged Jamaal Crawford as our only NBA-caliber wing off the bench.

[Monster]

I can't remember who posted it or what thread it was in but they mentioned Thibs should get fired for just all the yelling. I'll share this info here.

On a recent podcast Souhan and Jon K has Steve Terry on from TSR injury law who is a Wolves sponsor and sponsor of their podcast. Anyway they asked him some thoughts as a fan who sits court side. One point he made was that even though it may sound crazy but Thibs has toned his yelling etc down A LOT and he would know he sits directly "behind Thibs ass". He said of course Thibs is still Thibs but it's VERY noticeable how much less his antics are compared to last year.

He also said Wiggins doesn't sweat and it's weird and he said that happens even if he is playing hard. I play basketball with a guy like that. We can be playing in a non air conditioned gym in the summer and it's gotta be well over 100 in there with high humidity (and yes he plays D) and i've seen him sweat like once and we all made a big deal out of it. Lol I've seen Wiggins sweat before watching on TV but a lot of times yep looks as cool as a cucumber and he hasn't just been standing around and stuff.

[AbeVigodaLive]

The Ringer NBA Show discusses the Wolves vs. Grizzlies loss today.

Chris Vernon is the Memphis radio/tv guy? He's seen both Grizzlies losses up close. He's usually pretty good at controlling his younger/more kneejerk reactionary counterpart on that podcast.

But he said that the "Wolves were dead." in that game and was ripping the minutes and the toll it's taken. Nobody nationally knows how much the Grizzlies suck more than that guy.



[Note: By the way, that podcast also discussed the Wolves talking themselves into Wes Johnson... and out of Paul George... because that was conventional wisdom at the time.]

[thedoper]

I'd like to see Thibs focus on the front office eventually and find an up and coming coach to run on the floor. I'm hoping this is his longer term plan for the franchise actually. On the positive I do think Thibs has made some progress on the player development front with Wiggins and KAT coupled with him bringing in complimentary personnel to show them the way on the floor. I am also excited that Thibs is going to be their playoff coach for this year as I think this is where we can really evaluate Thibs coaching in the game to game adjustments. This first year of the playoffs is going to be huge for Wiggins and KAT to open their eyes to what NBA basketball is really all about, and I think having a veteran coach like Thibs to be able to point out where the areas of improvement are is important. Still long term I think some of the issues and concerns are valid and think the smart play for Thibs is to use his talents in building the team rather than the day to day on the court issues.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I'd like to see Thibs focus on the front office eventually and find an up and coming coach to run on the floor. I'm hoping this is his longer term plan for the franchise actually. On the positive I do think Thibs has made some progress on the player development front with Wiggins and KAT coupled with him bringing in complimentary personnel to show them the way on the floor. I am also excited that Thibs is going to be their playoff coach for this year as I think this is where we can really evaluate Thibs coaching in the game to game adjustments. This first year of the playoffs is going to be huge for Wiggins and KAT to open their eyes to what NBA basketball is really all about, and I think having a veteran coach like Thibs to be able to point out where the areas of improvement are is important. Still long term I think some of the issues and concerns are valid and think the smart play for Thibs is to use his talents in building the team rather than the day to day on the court issues.

Uh, they aren't in the playoffs yet, so I'm certainly not assuming we get to see Thibs coach in that environment. Never underestimate this team's ability to embarrass and disappoint its fan base!

As for Wiggins and KAT.....eh. Not so sure either have taken that big of a leap. If they had, we wouldn't have a losing record without Butler in the lineup and these guys would be doing much more to help us win games. These two are the common thread in a team that has consistently been terrible defensively for the past three years.