Thibs Criticism

[mjs34]

Interesting to hear comments from observers outside of the wolves circle. Starts around the 12:50 mark.

https://soundcloud.com/ringernbashow/underperforming-superteams-overperforming-rookies-and-the-first-quarter-awards-ep-172

Kevin O'Connor has the same take as many on here. Not surprised to hear about the chemistry issues with Towns.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Damn it, SJM...

I JUST wrote about this, too. But you're faster... so I'll just repost it here:

Today, The Ringer NBA podcast discusses the Wolves a bit. One of the hosts is the Grizzlies play-by-play guy or something. Anyway, neither he nor Kevin O'Connor are impressed... with the latter going full LST calling for Thibs' immediate dismissal over the heavy minutes.

More telling was that he mentioned murmurings about chemistry issues. And even though O'Connor is a very mixed bag for me... I did like his commentary about how the Wolves have a couple of guys who've performed well at the D-League level... but can't even see the court for mop-up duty in the NBA. What kind of effect does this have on the team chemistry when apparently only 8 players matter to the coach?

My take on this is whether other players are noticing or hearing about this from afar? Why would fringe/promising players look twice at the Wolves if they see guys being buried? How is this team developing players for the future? Thibs has already whined about a lack of practice time, so these young guys are literally doing nothing.

They also touched on how the team might be better with a lesser "talent" than Wiggins purely from chemistry/fit ways.

[thedoper]

I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

O'Connor is young... and I think fairly new to the game of basketball, relatively speaking. It comes out in his takes about tanking and the draft. I think he began as a draft guy.

Vernon going apeshit on O'Connor for suggesting perennial playoff (but not title) teams like Memphis are failures and should be blown up is one of the best moments of my podcast commuting year.

It spoke to anybody trying to use context in a discussion with a hot-take millenial.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

[thedoper]

I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I think most of us would probably be OK-ish with our current record if we knew absolutely nothing else about how they got to that point, meaning never watched the games, didn't check the box scores...ONLY looked at their record.

But because we're collectively insane, most of us watch this team and pay quite a bit of attention. And some of us don't like what we see once you peel the onion back a layer or two. The fact we have played against many highly compromised opponents (i.e. key injuries); the point differential; the lack of progress by two of our supposed young stars; the minutes being played; the style/pace of play, etc. There are multiple canaries in the coal mine.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

To be fair, it's fine to adjust expectations during the season... and consider in-season developments instead of sticking to preseason guesswork.

Likewise, it's time to start adjusting expectations for some of the players too. For example, we might have to assume Wiggins will not be better than Giannis... or even Khris Middleton. KAT might not be the best (or even 3rd best) young big in the game. Et al.

[Monster]

I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

To be fair, it's fine to adjust expectations during the season... and consider in-season developments instead of sticking to preseason guesswork.

Likewise, it's time to start adjusting expectations for some of the players too. For example, we might have to assume Wiggins will not be better than Giannis... or even Khris Middleton. KAT might not be the best (or even 3rd best) young big in the game. Et al.

It's funny you mention those guys. Guess who leads the NBA in MPG and guess who is right between Wiggins and Butler?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

To be fair, it's fine to adjust expectations during the season... and consider in-season developments instead of sticking to preseason guesswork.

Likewise, it's time to start adjusting expectations for some of the players too. For example, we might have to assume Wiggins will not be better than Giannis... or even Khris Middleton. KAT might not be the best (or even 3rd best) young big in the game. Et al.

I've already been there when it comes to Andrew Wiggins. I don't even feel like he'll sniff the level of player that Demar DeRozan is, and for some that was the "worst-case scenario" with him. We're looking at a thinner Rudy Gay unless things really change, and I'm not confident that they're going to.

I'm not anywhere close to giving up on Karl-Anthony Towns being a superstar. Last week Towns joined Shaquille O'Neal, Bob McAdoo, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan as the only players with 4,000 points and 2,000 rebounds through their first 185 career games. There are several other eye-opening stats with Towns' name among the all-time greats and none of those names could shoot from the perimeter like he can. He has a bit of maturing that's required, both on and off the court, but I'm not jumping ship. He's still the best young big in the game and the future of the league, in my opinion.