Thibs Criticism

[Lipoli390]

Firing a winning coach with no controversy for aesthetics of play alone would be an unprecendented move, and completely illogical from any business perspective. There is absolutely zero reason to fire a coach who is delivering on their plan because some fans aren't entertained enough by the product. Winning is everything, we were one shot from winning another last night. Coach got them to the door, the players couldn't walk through.

Doper -- It's not just aesthetics. It's the disparity that many of us see between the team's talent and the team's quality of play. We're had a comparatively easy schedule so far. The schedule gets much tougher down the road and the wins will be even harder to get. The point I'd make about last night is that we shouldn't have been one shot away from winning. Based on our talent, playing at home against a Sixers team without one of their top 3 players, we should have won the game with some room to spare. But don't worry, Taylor won't fire Thibs this season.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Firing a winning coach with no controversy for aesthetics of play alone would be an unprecendented move, and completely illogical from any business perspective. There is absolutely zero reason to fire a coach who is delivering on their plan because some fans aren't entertained enough by the product. Winning is everything, we were one shot from winning another last night. Coach got them to the door, the players couldn't walk through.

Big picture: This is hard to argue against.

I'm on record complaining about this team's consistent inconsistency and for the lack of enjoyment/entertainment. But it's important to consider where Taylor stands with all this.

The team hasn't even been .500 in 13 seasons. The team would break an NBA record if they miss the playoffs this season in a league where more than 1/2 the teams make the playoffs every year. The Wolves have been SO BAD... that any winning should be considered a good thing. And it will be seen as a good thing.

That's not to dismiss warning signs or frustration... I'm right there with everybody else. And I think that's even a good thing at times. But for a guy like Taylor... just making the playoffs (or not having a super crappy team) is probably all he cares about right now.

[kekgeek]

Firing a winning coach with no controversy for aesthetics of play alone would be an unprecendented move, and completely illogical from any business perspective. There is absolutely zero reason to fire a coach who is delivering on their plan because some fans aren't entertained enough by the product. Winning is everything, we were one shot from winning another last night. Coach got them to the door, the players couldn't walk through.

Doper -- It's not just aesthetics. It's the disparity that many of us see between the team's talent and the team's quality of play. We're had a comparatively easy schedule so far. The schedule gets much tougher down the road and the wins will be even harder to get. The point I'd make about last night is that we shouldn't have been one shot away from winning. Based on our talent, playing at home against a Sixers team without one of their top 3 players, we should have won the game with some room to spare. But don't worry, Taylor won't fire Thibs this season.

Wolves have had the 14th hardest schedule so far and 5th toughest in the west

[thedoper]

Firing a winning coach with no controversy for aesthetics of play alone would be an unprecendented move, and completely illogical from any business perspective. There is absolutely zero reason to fire a coach who is delivering on their plan because some fans aren't entertained enough by the product. Winning is everything, we were one shot from winning another last night. Coach got them to the door, the players couldn't walk through.

Doper -- It's not just aesthetics. It's the disparity that many of us see between the team's talent and the team's quality of play. We're had a comparatively easy schedule so far. The schedule gets much tougher down the road and the wins will be even harder to get. The point I'd make about last night is that we shouldn't have been one shot away from winning. Based on our talent, playing at home against a Sixers team without one of their top 3 players, we should have won the game with some room to spare. But don't worry, Taylor won't fire Thibs this season.

I'm not worried, logic would compel anyone to not fire a winning coach. It just doesn't happen without Thibs being a total asshole to star players or management. There is a lot of talent in this league, more than at any time I would argue, and many games get close. If we had a coach with a ball movement scheme, I'm not sure we'd be seeing any different results because this team is still gelling together. We are talented, but we're 5 deep. Our bench is bad with Belly injured. Everything points to that. Now that I have seen 30ish games I'm not not sure where our overall talent ranks against our opponents because we're so top heavy.

[Monster]

Something to consider:

Dave Joeger a guy a lot of us really wanted to be the coach of this team going forward hasn't exactly been amazing with the Kings. Sure he is coaching the Kings but this season they take the fewest 3's AND are one of the bottom teams taking shots at the rim. They take a ton of jump shots that aren't 3's. He wanted some of his own guys too and they got them. How is that working out over there? One available coach that we could have hired that seems to be having some success now that he isn't saddled by ridiculousness of the triangle is Hornecek. Would he be the answer though? Fizdale is highly regarded and it seemed like he was really doing good things with Memphis last year but he butted heads with Gasol and the 2 guys supposedly were basically not talking for months and Fizdale got fired. That's at least concerning and I like Fizdale quite a bit.

The point here is that the saying "The grass is greener on the other side" often has some truth to it. There are absolutely legit reasons to be frustrated with Thibs particularly defensively but let's also remember dumping one guy and bringing in another guy isn't always going to yeild the results we want either. Let's legitimately give this thing with Thibs more time.

Good point about the grass not always being greener and the challenge in finding the right replacement. I was never a Joeger guy. And I've never been a Fizdale guy either. I've always liked Hornacek, who I see as someone in the mold of a Steve Kerr. I've always been a fan of Dever's Michael Malone.

In any event, it's not enough just to fire Thibs without hiring the right replacement. I haven't spent any time delving into that. At this point, I just want someone who runs a modern offense that includes something other than iso play after iso play. And I wasn't someone who instills confidence in the team and brings some positivity instead of the sour, dour attitude that Thibs exudes.

Thanks for the reply Lip it led to some more thoughts! :)

Speaking of Mike Malone (I forgot to mention him) I'm a fan of his also but he hasn't really done anything that special with Denver either. The thing he was known for as an assistant was defense which wasn't good last year (worse defensive rating than the Wolves!) and this year without Millsap that team has been horrendous on that end. I'll mention here that I've read and heard a number of people that watch a lot of NBA basketball say Gary Harris is very overrated on defense.

Honestly if you fire a coach that has any kind of legit reputation you better be getting one or both of these:

1. Good coach with a perfect fit for the roster. What coach fits a roster with lack of 3 point shooting? POBO needs to do some work...I'd be intruiged by a guy that basically uses Towns as a perimeter jump shooter but...then again is that what you want? Idk it's tough because he can be so good in the post and that can really create a lot of good offfense.

2. Elite head coach or guy you think is the next Brad Stevens or retread that turns into Rick Carlisle on the next stop.

Let's list the coaches at the top.

Elite

Pop
Carlisle
Stevens
Spolstra
Kerr (some would argue with being in the next category)

Great coach with unbelievable fit very close to being in the next group.

D'Antoni

Ok you can make a case for some other guys being really close or being above everyone else like Stotts or Bud or Van Gundy or Snyder but none of those guys are probably going anywhere anytime soon anyway. Regardless we are talking how many elite coaches or really damn good coaches with elite fits for their roster? 6? 7? 8? And we are gonna get one of those guys? The last time we thought we had that was hitting Adelman and in true Wolves fashion that didn't work out and we never really found out if it would have worked because of his wife being sick.

How many of us wanted Fred Hoiberg? How is that working out? It's been a mixed bag at best and nobody is a bigger fan of Fred than I am.

JVG is always interesting espcially now that he is actually coaching the team USA scrubs. He and Thibs are a lot alike though.

Lip I think you get where I am coming from I'm not saying just blindly say "Ok maybe we can't do better we will just live with it because we may not be able to do better" and not question anything but I think it is worth seeing this out a little longer. The next guy could come in and do things the wrong way too and take a year or 2 figure out he isn't the answer either. Let's stick with something for a while. Maybe all of us will end up being pleasantly surprised at some point. Heck last week Thibs gave guys 2 days off practice...in a row! Lol

[AbeVigodaLive]

Thibs had the pedigree coming in. He was largely regarded as a great get for the franchise... with most reservations from NBA insiders and many here being about the dual role as GM + coach. And a few questioned his mpg history while acknowledging that he was a winner who largely succeeded in Chicago.

It's amusing and frustrating and even alarming that there are so many questions about his coaching now. I think many, if not most, are valid. Something is off. But there's something more sinister underneath the surface. Something more dangerous. Something lurking... something nefarious hiding in plain sight...

We've hitched our collective wagons to two superstars who might not be as good as we thought they were.'


[Note: I have my thoughts on Wiggins. I don't know just how good KAT can be yet. But I sure do hope that it ends up being Thibs holding them back and not something else... like themselves. Because if that's the case... it doesn't matter who the franchise brings in to coach.]

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

This article is a month old, but it describes in a rather scholarly fashion the concerns some of us have about the NBA game having passed Thibs by. I found especially interesting the section about how effective Thibs ICE defense was in Chicago and Boston, but how NBA offenses have adjusted to it and made it obsolete...this may have a lot to do with why we continue to have the worst defense in the league in terms of eFG%. I'm pleased that Thibs has taken my advice :) and played his bench more the past couple games and allowed us to beat teams with much less talent, but I still think his antiquated offensive and defensive schemes are keeping this team from truly reaching its potential. I'm interesting in all of your thoughts about this article.

https://zonecoverage.com/2017/timberwolves/moore-the-offensive-and-defensive-strategies-appear-outdated-in-minnesota/

[Monster]

This article is a month old, but it describes in a rather scholarly fashion the concerns some of us have about the NBA game having passed Thibs by. I found especially interesting the section about how effective Thibs ICE defense was in Chicago and Boston, but how NBA offenses have adjusted to it and made it obsolete...this may have a lot to do with why we continue to have the worst defense in the league in terms of eFG%. I'm pleased that Thibs has taken my advice :) and played his bench more the past couple games and allowed us to beat teams with much less talent, but I still think his antiquated offensive and defensive schemes are keeping this team from truly reaching its potential. I'm interesting in all of your thoughts about this article.

https://zonecoverage.com/2017/timberwolves/moore-the-offensive-and-defensive-strategies-appear-outdated-in-minnesota/

It's a good article he has one about Thibs Minutes you may want to check out. :)

I just listened to a Dunc'd On podcast with Dylan Murphy and he talks about the Ice defense and all the counters teams try and use. He is a former coach and sounds plenty knowledgeable. The Ice defense is far from obsolete teams use it all the time. As I mentioned in another post it's all about trying to keep teams from going middle and offense trying to get middle.

[Hicks123 [enjin:6700838]]

Wow....this board certainly has become jaded on the Thibs topic. The guy simply can't win.

If we win, it isn't by enough, and/or it was complete luck. But when we lose, it is 100% driven by Thibs and his "style". Despite the fact that we have the 7th best record in the entire NBA.

I get the frustration in some aspects of the game, but by the sounds of it, we have about 3-4 guys on this board that should be getting paid about $5MM+ to coach in the NBA. They obviously understand the NBA game much more than stupid Thibs. Not sure I love Thibs long term for this team, but he certainly has been successful in at least making this team win right now and begin to develop a different culture. If a new coach makes sense moving forward, by all means, let's do that. For now, I am excited to win some games and play productive basketball. Just my 2 cents.

[thedoper]

Wow....this board certainly has become jaded on the Thibs topic. The guy simply can't win.

If we win, it isn't by enough, and/or it was complete luck. But when we lose, it is 100% driven by Thibs and his "style". Despite the fact that we have the 7th best record in the entire NBA.

I get the frustration in some aspects of the game, but by the sounds of it, we have about 3-4 guys on this board that should be getting paid about $5MM+ to coach in the NBA. They obviously understand the NBA game much more than stupid Thibs. Not sure I love Thibs long term for this team, but he certainly has been successful in at least making this team win right now and begin to develop a different culture. If a new coach makes sense moving forward, by all means, let's do that. For now, I am excited to win some games and play productive basketball. Just my 2 cents.

With adjusting to a roster overhaul we should have logically expected some bumps in the road. I think emotionally people wanted more with the acquistion of a top 15 player and exciting young players. If you look at the adjustments OKC has gone through it seems reasonable that teams are still working out kinks at this point in the season. We've had steady improvement all season and still haven't hit our peak yet which is exciting to me. We're already performing way beyond most of the board's prediction for wins, many here just didn't like Thibs to begin with from what I can tell. Arguing with winning seems silly to me but the grass is always greener I suppose.