Thibs Criticism

[Wolvesfan21]

Here is something I was thinking about with the Wolves highest minutes in the league. I know they are probably one of the slower teams as far as offensively. No real urgency or aggressiveness much of the time it seems. So here is the thing. They are still scoring points but what does that do to the other team and the Wolves defensively?

It gives the opponent time to rest on defense and then they can push the ball on offense and the circle starts over again.

Wolves slow it down, give opposition a rest, other team is fresh on offense and finds a good shot.

Wolves are tired, dribble the ball up slowly and take a last second chuck after we hear green for the 30th time that game.

[Lipoli390]

I'm not a huge O'Connor fan. Extreme hot take guy as I see it. I like Vernon though. I thought his point about moving Wiggins was interesting. Watch him go to the Spurs and become an all star I guess.

As for Thibs I think the extreme end of the criticism is overblown. I am concerned about minutes and depth. But, all teams play their stars a lot of minutes unless you have the luxury that the Warriors have of having a hall of famer sign under the cap in the one year that was possible. As for our depth, this had to be the year that we had depth issues because of our economics. We had high salary without being maxed out and being able to use any exemptions. This year the big picture is still the same, get this team in the playoffs and make some noise. We grow from there. Until Thibs veers off that course I find it hard to criticize his methodology if it is working.

Doper- I take issue with two of your comments:

"All teams play their stars a lot of minutes". True, but not nearly to the extent Thibs does. I'm sure someone can provide the up to date numbers, but a couple weeks ago he had played his starters 150 minutes more than the second most total...that's absurd! It's one thing to be an outlier, another to be completely out of step with modern coaching rotation philosophy.

"I find it hard to criticize his method if it is working". Again, I would agree IF it were working. But there is evidence...both statistical and eye test...that tells me his philosophy is NOT working. The Wolves set an NBA record last year for most double digit leads blown...I believe it was 23 games. And the trend continues this year despite the addition of Butler, Gibson and Teague. Several posters have noted how exhausted our starters look at the end of games (the Memphis play by play guy noticed it last game), and it's been obvious to me too...especially in games I have attended. Finally, there is the bad body language Jon K and some of us have noted on the court. This isn't unusual for a team that is losing...but to see players acting like they are while having a winning record is evidence that he is losing this team. You might argue that being 14-11 is evidence that his coaching style is working...but many of us here believe they should be more like 17-8 with the talent they have assembled.

It is working means we are in a playoff spot, that was the intention for this season. In the wins prediction thread very few people predicted a 17-8 pace. It seems disingenuous to retroactively make that the expectation and then hold Thibs to that when 1 or 2 people predicted us to win at that pace. For instance, you predicted 46 wins, how are you holding him to an expectation to be way ahead of your prediction? Its a complete removal of any sense of objectivity, and conveniently allows you to always be right. Basically you're saying Thibs hasn't vastly exceeded my expectations, therefore he is horrible and should be fired. I agree that we could have done better in many of these games. But with a unique starting 5 and finding a way to mesh new players we're nowhere near "fire Thibs" land.

To be fair, it's fine to adjust expectations during the season... and consider in-season developments instead of sticking to preseason guesswork.

Likewise, it's time to start adjusting expectations for some of the players too. For example, we might have to assume Wiggins will not be better than Giannis... or even Khris Middleton. KAT might not be the best (or even 3rd best) young big in the game. Et al.

I've already been there when it comes to Andrew Wiggins. I don't even feel like he'll sniff the level of player that Demar DeRozan is, and for some that was the "worst-case scenario" with him. We're looking at a thinner Rudy Gay unless things really change, and I'm not confident that they're going to.

I'm not anywhere close to giving up on Karl-Anthony Towns being a superstar. Last week Towns joined Shaquille O'Neal, Bob McAdoo, David Robinson, Hakeem Olajuwon and Tim Duncan as the only players with 4,000 points and 2,000 rebounds through their first 185 career games. There are several other eye-opening stats with Towns' name among the all-time greats and none of those names could shoot from the perimeter like he can. He has a bit of maturing that's required, both on and off the court, but I'm not jumping ship. He's still the best young big in the game and the future of the league, in my opinion.

Great to hear from you Cam!! I agree with you on both Wiggins and Towns. KAT has some growing up to do, but his talent and competitiveness will see him through his current struggles. And even as he struggles, he still averaging a double-double, including over 11 rebounds per game.

[Lipoli390]

Here is something I was thinking about with the Wolves highest minutes in the league. I know they are probably one of the slower teams as far as offensively. No real urgency or aggressiveness much of the time it seems. So here is the thing. They are still scoring points but what does that do to the other team and the Wolves defensively?

It gives the opponent time to rest on defense and then they can push the ball on offense and the circle starts over again.

Wolves slow it down, give opposition a rest, other team is fresh on offense and finds a good shot.

Wolves are tired, dribble the ball up slowly and take a last second chuck after we hear green for the 30th time that game.

I made the point implied in your question in another thread a little while ago. Teams really don't have to work very hard to defend the Wolves. And I think that helps opposing offenses, which in turn hurts the Wolves defense.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Here is something I was thinking about with the Wolves highest minutes in the league. I know they are probably one of the slower teams as far as offensively. No real urgency or aggressiveness much of the time it seems. So here is the thing. They are still scoring points but what does that do to the other team and the Wolves defensively?

It gives the opponent time to rest on defense and then they can push the ball on offense and the circle starts over again.

Wolves slow it down, give opposition a rest, other team is fresh on offense and finds a good shot.

Wolves are tired, dribble the ball up slowly and take a last second chuck after we hear green for the 30th time that game.

I made the point implied in your question in another thread a little while ago. Teams really don't have to work very hard to defend the Wolves. And I think that helps opposing offenses, which in turn hurts the Wolves defense.

Anyone that has played basketball knows what a pain in the ass it is to guard a guy that is really active at moving without the ball.

The other thing to keep in mind is that we Taj and KAT both go hard after offensive rebounds. That often leaves us vulnerable to transition buckets, especially when one of our perimeter guys drives to the hoop and misses, therefore leaving three guys trailing on defense.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

KAT is our most productive player, but he's not our best player and won't be until he starts taking the little things more seriously. Perhaps it's maturity, but it is pretty frustrating to see a 3rd year player with all the reps he's had to be THIS bad on defense.

[Lipoli390]

KAT is our most productive player, but he's not our best player and won't be until he starts taking the little things more seriously. Perhaps it's maturity, but it is pretty frustrating to see a 3rd year player with all the reps he's had to be THIS bad on defense.

Yes, not our best player. But his productivity as a 22 year old at the start of his 3rd season is nothing to sneeze at. Being the team's most productive player is a big deal. As for his defense, it's hard to separate his defense from the team's overall poor defense. That's the perspective I'd offer in evaluating KAT defense. I also think he's expected to defend players he's not physically equipped to defend -- namely the big centers. Then I recall that late 2016 game against Golden State when Sam Mitchell had Towns guard Curry in the 4th and Towns shut Curry down. In other words, some of KAT's defensive problem trace to how he's being used by his head coach as well as the team's overall defense.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I actually listened to this finally.....ooof.

The analogy that struck me was the dreaded Wiggins/Rudy Gay comparison. The guy basically said that when Memphis ditched Gay and replaced him with more of a role player type (Tayshaun Prince in this case), Memphis really took off because it meant two more efficient players (Conley and Gasol) got more shots. He also used the term "malpractice" to describe KAT's six shots the other night against (ironically) Memphis.

KAT has a long ways to go defensively, but offensively he is by far the most gifted player we've got. He needs more touches, to the point where the offense runs through him as much as it does through Teague and Butler in high pick and roll. If that means more standing in the corner for Wiggins, so be it. He really shouldn't be getting many shots with his weak efficiency.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

KAT is our most productive player, but he's not our best player and won't be until he starts taking the little things more seriously. Perhaps it's maturity, but it is pretty frustrating to see a 3rd year player with all the reps he's had to be THIS bad on defense.

Yes, not our best player. But his productivity as a 22 year old at the start of his 3rd season is nothing to sneeze at. Being the team's most productive player is a big deal. As for his defense, it's hard to separate his defense from the team's overall poor defense. That's the perspective I'd offer in evaluating KAT defense. I also think he's expected to defend players he's not physically equipped to defend -- namely the big centers. Then I recall that late 2016 game against Golden State when Sam Mitchell had Towns guard Curry in the 4th and Towns shut Curry down. In other words, some of KAT's defensive problem trace to how he's being used by his head coach as well as the team's overall defense.

I think he's always been pretty solid on switches when guarding a guy straight up. It's decision making on pick and roll coverage, getting back on defense, knowing how to wall up and use his length without leaving his feet, understanding angles and squaring his body, etc.

[longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]]

I guess my question is this: What would appease everyone that says Thibs plays his best players too much? What is it that you want?

Would playing Taj Gibson 30 MPG instead of 33 MPG make a huge difference in terms of W/L? Would playing Bjelica more make him more or less effective?

Would you rather Andrew Wiggins and Jimmy Butler play 33 MPG so Shabazz Muhammad (not even worth rostering) gets more playing time? Would this help or hurt the team? Think about it.

Jeff Teague is playing around his career average and before he got to Minnesota, nobody commented on how he's being overplayed. I guess Tyus Jones has earned more minutes. Sure, throw him some more PT. Does that really change anything?

Should our best player Karl-Anthony Towns stay off the floor for even longer? He's already playing less minutes per game than he did last year. Maybe he should only play 30 MPG like the rest of the stars in the league... Wait, that'd be counterproductive and it straight up doesn't happen.

I just don't understand what it is you all want Thibs to do with his minutes allocation that would actually make any difference. Or is it just something to bitch about?

I think we tend to get too focused on the minutes played, while the real issue is the minutes of rest. The fact that Player A plays 33 minutes and Player B plays 30 might not have a big impact on the game in and of itself. But the fact that Player A was only allowed to rest for 5 minutes at the end of the third quarter and Player B was given 8 minutes is likely to impact their play. I know this both from personal experience and from watching the Wolves' poor play at the end of games when Thibs doesn't give enough rest. I remember times in high school and college when the coach put me back in before I had had time to sufficiently recover, and I know my performance was not as strong as it could have been. And we've all witnessed the terrible 4th quarter collapses for the Wolves when Thibs rests his starters much less than the opposing coach (as I type this, I see that Thibs is at it again...he has played his bench 20 minutes so far tonight and Rivers has played his 35).

What would I like to see Thibs do? Easy...use the roster that he had a hand in assembling. He went out and got Aldridge who played very well for Doc Rivers, but he won't play him and rather chooses to burn out KAT. Tyus Jones was very good while Teague was out, but now he can't get a sufficient amount of minutes. I think that hurts both PGs...Tyus can't get into a groove with so few minutes, and Teague looks slow on offense and defense when he is exhausted at the end of games.

I don't know if Thibs is capable of changing, but I think his willingness to adapt to the way other coaches are using their rotations will be a key factor in our success this year.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

I can support wanting to see more of Tyus Jones, however I'd personally want to see less of Jamal Crawford as a result. I'm fine with how much the starters are being played.

I can't agree with you at all in terms of playing Aldrich at all. I said it before he was signed, but he's not a good NBA player. He's not worthy of being in the rotation as far as I can tell. Outside of the one season for the Clippers in which the advanced metrics actually loved him, he's been a floater around the league -- what, six teams in eight seasons, or something like that -- for a plethora of reasons -- his inability to produce being key.