Wolves Defensive breakdowns

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Some glaring aggregate stats by position:
Center Position - 23.7 ppg (4th worst in the NBA) at league worst 59% FG. We are the 6th best in creating turnovers at this position and have been getting a +1 rebound differential for the season. So G's defensive stats, like Rubio's, have been getting inflated by being relatively good at individual metrics while their cover is going off at will. Yes team concepts matter in covering these guys. But the 3pt % from the point only seems to highlight Ricky's inability to fight through screens. If you go back and look at the box scores of the center position for the year it is sad. There is always at least one big who seems to shoot 80% against us. We're 4th worst in the league in points in the paint as I mentioned above.

About that bolded part. The metric that is mostly used to advocate the defense of Dieng and Rubio, is DRPM, which is not based on individual metrics (i.e. steals or blocks). That metric is based on how each player affect to team defensive rating. So even tough their individual match up would score quite much, whole team is much more effective in defense when Dieng or Rubio are on court. I think main reason is that they are much better help defenders than any of our three stars Lavine, Wiggins or Towns.

Other Adjusted +\- calculations that I've read about account for rb% and steal% as part of their metric. I assume espn does that with RPM which explains why G and Ricky rate high. Do you have a different reference that says otherwise? ESPN doesn't publish their equation on their website so I am a bit confused by your point.

This website says rebound rate is part of the calculation:

https://www.google.ca/amp/nyloncalculus.com/2014/04/21/calculating-rapm/amp/

I don't know exactly what goes into RPM, because as you say, it's a proprietary metric. But it's mostly based off team defensive performance while the player is on the floor, adjusting for the other players and opponents. If things like steals, blocks, and defensive rebounds played a major role, then a guy like KAT wouldn't be near the bottom of the barrel in this metric, no (he's by far our best defensive rebounder and gets his fair share of blocks and steals)? Also, Dieng is hardly a stat stuffer. He gets his fair share of blocks and steals, but is below average on the defensive glass for Centers. So how come he gets rated so much better than KAT - I mean, by a huge amount?

I do think DRPM exaggerates how awful the LaVine/KAT/Wiggins trio is and inflates Dieng and Rubio....but only up to a point. Directionally, I think the metric has merit and it passes the sniff test with many other players outside of the Wolves that we think of as great or poor defenders.

[thedoper]

Some glaring aggregate stats by position:
Center Position - 23.7 ppg (4th worst in the NBA) at league worst 59% FG. We are the 6th best in creating turnovers at this position and have been getting a +1 rebound differential for the season. So G's defensive stats, like Rubio's, have been getting inflated by being relatively good at individual metrics while their cover is going off at will. Yes team concepts matter in covering these guys. But the 3pt % from the point only seems to highlight Ricky's inability to fight through screens. If you go back and look at the box scores of the center position for the year it is sad. There is always at least one big who seems to shoot 80% against us. We're 4th worst in the league in points in the paint as I mentioned above.

About that bolded part. The metric that is mostly used to advocate the defense of Dieng and Rubio, is DRPM, which is not based on individual metrics (i.e. steals or blocks). That metric is based on how each player affect to team defensive rating. So even tough their individual match up would score quite much, whole team is much more effective in defense when Dieng or Rubio are on court. I think main reason is that they are much better help defenders than any of our three stars Lavine, Wiggins or Towns.

Other Adjusted +\- calculations that I've read about account for rb% and steal% as part of their metric. I assume espn does that with RPM which explains why G and Ricky rate high. Do you have a different reference that says otherwise? ESPN doesn't publish their equation on their website so I am a bit confused by your point.

This website says rebound rate is part of the calculation:

https://www.google.ca/amp/nyloncalculus.com/2014/04/21/calculating-rapm/amp/

I don't know exactly what goes into RPM, because as you say, it's a proprietary metric. But it's mostly based off team defensive performance while the player is on the floor, adjusting for the other players and opponents. If things like steals, blocks, and defensive rebounds played a major role, then a guy like KAT wouldn't be near the bottom of the barrel in this metric, no (he's by far our best defensive rebounder and gets his fair share of blocks and steals)? Also, Dieng is hardly a stat stuffer. He gets his fair share of blocks and steals, but is below average on the defensive glass for Centers. So how come he gets rated so much better than KAT - I mean, by a huge amount?

I do think DRPM exaggerates how awful the LaVine/KAT/Wiggins trio is and inflates Dieng and Rubio....but only up to a point. Directionally, I think the metric has merit and it passes the sniff test with many other players outside of the Wolves that we think of as great or poor defenders.

Up to a point? DRPM has Dieng in the top 10 in the league and Rubio as the 4th best defending PG. If stl% were a major factor for instance, that would favor Ricky and Dieng relative to their minutes. The main point is dRPM the only defensive metric that have these two sniffing this type of rating. That makes them outliers to me, especially when such a dramatic chunk of opponents points are coming from their positions.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

Some glaring aggregate stats by position:
Center Position - 23.7 ppg (4th worst in the NBA) at league worst 59% FG. We are the 6th best in creating turnovers at this position and have been getting a +1 rebound differential for the season. So G's defensive stats, like Rubio's, have been getting inflated by being relatively good at individual metrics while their cover is going off at will. Yes team concepts matter in covering these guys. But the 3pt % from the point only seems to highlight Ricky's inability to fight through screens. If you go back and look at the box scores of the center position for the year it is sad. There is always at least one big who seems to shoot 80% against us. We're 4th worst in the league in points in the paint as I mentioned above.

About that bolded part. The metric that is mostly used to advocate the defense of Dieng and Rubio, is DRPM, which is not based on individual metrics (i.e. steals or blocks). That metric is based on how each player affect to team defensive rating. So even tough their individual match up would score quite much, whole team is much more effective in defense when Dieng or Rubio are on court. I think main reason is that they are much better help defenders than any of our three stars Lavine, Wiggins or Towns.

Other Adjusted +\- calculations that I've read about account for rb% and steal% as part of their metric. I assume espn does that with RPM which explains why G and Ricky rate high. Do you have a different reference that says otherwise? ESPN doesn't publish their equation on their website so I am a bit confused by your point.

This website says rebound rate is part of the calculation:

https://www.google.ca/amp/nyloncalculus.com/2014/04/21/calculating-rapm/amp/

I don't know exactly what goes into RPM, because as you say, it's a proprietary metric. But it's mostly based off team defensive performance while the player is on the floor, adjusting for the other players and opponents. If things like steals, blocks, and defensive rebounds played a major role, then a guy like KAT wouldn't be near the bottom of the barrel in this metric, no (he's by far our best defensive rebounder and gets his fair share of blocks and steals)? Also, Dieng is hardly a stat stuffer. He gets his fair share of blocks and steals, but is below average on the defensive glass for Centers. So how come he gets rated so much better than KAT - I mean, by a huge amount?

I do think DRPM exaggerates how awful the LaVine/KAT/Wiggins trio is and inflates Dieng and Rubio....but only up to a point. Directionally, I think the metric has merit and it passes the sniff test with many other players outside of the Wolves that we think of as great or poor defenders.

Up to a point? DRPM has Dieng in the top 10 in the league and Rubio as the 4th best defending PG. If stl% were a major factor for instance, that would favor Ricky and Dieng relative to their minutes. The main point is dRPM the only defensive metric that have these two sniffing this type of rating. That makes them outliers to me, especially when such a dramatic chunk of opponents points are coming from their positions.

So how come Tristan Thompson, who has one of the worst steal percentages in the league, does well in DRPM? Shouldn't he be brought down by this? Louis Williams has a great steal percentage, yet rates as one of the worst defenders by DRPM for his position. How can it be that steal % inflates Gorgui and Rubio so much, but not Louis Williams?

Again, I do agree that Rubio and Dieng have their flaws. But your narrative that Wiggins is the only guy hustling trying to plug holes in a defense where everyone else fails is just plain wrong.

I think the reason Nate Duncan focused on Wiggins more than others is because of his physical gifts. Like many of us, he scratches his head wondering how a guy with so many God-given physical gifts doesn't impact the game in more ways. His series of video clips showed a big reason why: Inconsistent effort.

[thedoper]

So because Wiggins is an amazing athlete we expect him to jump around the man shielding him from the basket to block the weak side shot? Then if he doesn't he lacks effort. But then on the contrast because Rubio lacks NBA level athleticism at the PG position, if he runs 3 feet under a screen it has nothing to do with effort and can be accepted because our expectations are low?

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

So because Wiggins is an amazing athlete we expect him to jump around the man shielding him from the basket to block the weak side shot? Then if he doesn't he lacks effort. But then on the contrast because Rubio lacks NBA level athleticism at the PG position, if he runs 3 feet under a screen it has nothing to do with effort and can be accepted because our expectations are low?

No, because Wiggins is an amazing athlete, I expect him to make more impact plays on defense. His DReb% is worse than Rubio, Dunn, and Tyus Jones. Tyus Jones! You don't think that has anything to do with effort or "want-to"? That is a quantifiable stat right in front of your own eyes, yet your narrative is that it's everyone else's fault but his own. Nate Duncan's video clips were cherry-picked for sure, but the box score stats and advanced metrics like DRPM back it up.

As for Rubio, my guess is that Duncan didn't focus on him because he's already established himself as a solid NBA defender. And as for the Denver game specifically, it makes perfect sense to go under screens against Mudiay. He's probably as bad of a shooter as Rubio! I've also previously mentioned that Rubio and Dieng lead the team in deflections, charges taken, and loose balls retrieved. To characterize Rubio as lazy is just plain silly. Poor shooter, occasional gambler - fair enough. But lazy? No way.

[Coolbreeze44]

Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

Cam based on all the anti Wiggins rhetoric I read, I really don't think it is difficult. In fact it seems overblown to me. But I happen to like the guy, so maybe it's just me.

[thedoper]

Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

It's not extremely difficult. It happens all the time. Opinions are met with opposition, it's the way it should be. Many opinions here are subjective, particularly when it pertains to effort. Why should the expectation be when makes a subjective point, like Wiggins is a pussy, that it doesn't go unchallenged?

[Lipoli390]

Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

I was wondering the same thing, Cam.

No doubt we've been a terrible defensive team so far this season and blame for that falls on the entire team, including all the players and coaching staff. It's hard to break it down by individual player, but I think Q is absolutely right that Ricky and Gorgui are our best team defenders as measured by DRPM.

When it comes to Wiggins, what troubles me is that his major problem on both ends is effort. It's simply undeniable that he simply stands around or doesn't hustle way too often. It's infuriating and it's been going on with him for almost 2.5 seasons. Zach and KAT have a long way to go defensively, but at least they compete hard every minutes they're on the court.

[Coolbreeze44]

Why is it extremely difficult to point out flaws in Andrew Wiggins' game and effort on this board?

I was wondering the same thing, Cam.

No doubt we've been a terrible defensive team so far this season and blame for that falls on the entire team, including all the players and coaching staff. It's hard to break it down by individual player, but I think Q is absolutely right that Ricky and Gorgui are our best team defenders as measured by DRPM.

When it comes to Wiggins, what troubles me is that his major problem on both ends is effort. It's simply undeniable that he simply stands around or doesn't hustle way too often. It's infuriating and it's been going on with him for almost 2.5 seasons. Zach and KAT have a long way to go defensively, but at least they compete hard every minutes they're on the court.

No one on this board has more negative regarding Dieng's defense than Q. He's trashed him since the day we got him. And any metric that identifies Rubio as our best defender is dubious at best.