thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.
He's not an awful man defender. In today's NBA, there are limits as to what you can do when guarding out on the perimeter. It's nearly impossible to keep some of these really gifted PGs in front of you without drawing a foul.
As Mikkemann pointed out and backed up using the Bledsoe example, good defensive PGs can only do so much to impact an overall defense. Rubio may not be as good as Bledsoe or Chris Paul, but I'd certainly take him over the likes of Lillard, Walker, Irving, Teague, and many others when it comes to just the defensive side of the ball.
Bigs are generally the only players that can have a singular impact on a defense. For a simple example, go back to early last year and look at our defensive rating with KG on the court .....mind boggling. And that was a guy who could barely muster up the energy to suit up every game!
It is an absolute must skill to be able to get over a screen in the NBA. I am sorry but the lack of that skill makes Rubio an awful man defender in the NBA. It is a necessary skill he just doesn't possess. His instincts are great, his brain is there, but he just physically cannot do things required of good NBA defenders. It's not hatred as Brooklyn says, I like Rubio and think he's a solid NBA player, and he does do great things on the defensive side of the ball despite his deficiencies. But players need less time to shoot against him which is why we are bottom in the league in PG scoring and have been since he's been here. Lots of players can have a singular impact on D from a variety of positions (not just bigs - Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Leonard, Paul George), Rubio has moments of doing that with good positioning and instincts for helping, but he cannot keep up with his man against almost all the PGs in this league.
Don't disagree on the importance of being able to fight over a screen. I will concede that this isn't Ricky's strong suit, but I don't think that alone dictates whether someone is a good vs. awful man defender. There is also things like ball-denial when the man you are guarding doesn't have the ball. Ricky is excellent at this. There is also defense in isolation and the ability to contest shots without fouling. I think Ricky is OK-ish in these two areas. Then there is all the team defensive stuff....
By the way, your belief that the ability to get over screens dictates whether a player is a good man defender doesn't square with your belief that Wiggins is a great defender (which we also disagree on). He's no better than LaVine or Rubio at getting over screens, so he must be awful too in your book???
Dunn is the one guy on our roster that excels at this. It's why I think he could eventually be a better version of Rubio defensively. Now if only he knew how to run an offense and shoot!
Gettting through screens to me is both a team and individual defensive thing. I've seen stretches where Rubio steps up his game in this regard too. When he was a young player in Europe he seemed to be more aware and screening there allows the screener more leeway. I think Rubio's getting through or not getting through screens has at times something to do with team defense also both good and bad. Your teammates doing their jobs makes it more likely you can do yours. Again I am not suggesting getting through screens is a Rubio strength but I also don't know if he is like the worst at it either.
thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.
He's not an awful man defender. In today's NBA, there are limits as to what you can do when guarding out on the perimeter. It's nearly impossible to keep some of these really gifted PGs in front of you without drawing a foul.
As Mikkemann pointed out and backed up using the Bledsoe example, good defensive PGs can only do so much to impact an overall defense. Rubio may not be as good as Bledsoe or Chris Paul, but I'd certainly take him over the likes of Lillard, Walker, Irving, Teague, and many others when it comes to just the defensive side of the ball.
Bigs are generally the only players that can have a singular impact on a defense. For a simple example, go back to early last year and look at our defensive rating with KG on the court .....mind boggling. And that was a guy who could barely muster up the energy to suit up every game!
It is an absolute must skill to be able to get over a screen in the NBA. I am sorry but the lack of that skill makes Rubio an awful man defender in the NBA. It is a necessary skill he just doesn't possess. His instincts are great, his brain is there, but he just physically cannot do things required of good NBA defenders. It's not hatred as Brooklyn says, I like Rubio and think he's a solid NBA player, and he does do great things on the defensive side of the ball despite his deficiencies. But players need less time to shoot against him which is why we are bottom in the league in PG scoring and have been since he's been here. Lots of players can have a singular impact on D from a variety of positions (not just bigs - Tony Allen, Avery Bradley, Leonard, Paul George), Rubio has moments of doing that with good positioning and instincts for helping, but he cannot keep up with his man against almost all the PGs in this league.
Don't disagree on the importance of being able to fight over a screen. I will concede that this isn't Ricky's strong suit, but I don't think that alone dictates whether someone is a good vs. awful man defender. There is also things like ball-denial when the man you are guarding doesn't have the ball. Ricky is excellent at this. There is also defense in isolation and the ability to contest shots without fouling. I think Ricky is OK-ish in these two areas. Then there is all the team defensive stuff....
By the way, your belief that the ability to get over screens dictates whether a player is a good man defender doesn't square with your belief that Wiggins is a great defender (which we also disagree on). He's no better than LaVine or Rubio at getting over screens, so he must be awful too in your book???
Dunn is the one guy on our roster that excels at this. It's why I think he could eventually be a better version of Rubio defensively. Now if only he knew how to run an offense and shoot!
On Wiggins I think he is much better at avoiding the screen althogether. A lot of our mismatches seem to come when the extra man goes to switch when Wiggins doesn't need it, basically the help defenders switch early on the perimeter. Now if this is Wiggins missing the call/gameplan is unknown to me, but Thibs seems to keep going to Wiggins with lots of defensive responsibility so my guess is it is not completely on Wiggins. But it is night and day Ricky getting taken out of a play v Wiggins to me at least.
Overall, I know this is one of the areas of disagreement on this board but I think it's fair to point out that Rubio being a top 5 defender at his position is far from an open and shut case, especially with glaring holes when it comes to the typical characteristics of a good defender. But Rubio is an atypical player, which is exciting and potentially frustrating. I just hope he finds his way into a winning situation, either here or elsewhere. I think he could have a great role on a great team and have maintained that in spite of my criticisms of his game.
thedoper wrote:If Ricky is a top 5 defender we should have a winning record. The notion does not add up when we are on of the worst teams in the league at scoring from the PG position and have consistently been this way on Rubio's watch. He is an above average team defender and an awful man defender. As an aggregate he's gotten worse this year.
I think that nobody has stated that Ricky would have ever been overall top5 defender. He might be just top5 defender in point guard position that doesn't have as much effect for team defense than bigs typically have. Bledsoe is one of the best defending point guards as well, yet Phoenix have had only once winning record during the time he has been there.
I think Bledsoe on our team would drastically change our defense. Opposing PGs wouldn't be getting their position at will. At least they would have to fight for it.
If you think that replacing Ricky with Bledsoe would drastically improve our defense, what do you think is the reason why Phoenix then has even worse defense than Wolves?
If Bledsoe is better than Ricky, Chandler even at ancient age is still clearly better than Towns, Booker ins't any worse than Lavine and rest of the wings are about same level than Wolves wings, does that mean that Dieng and Bjelica are just so much better than anything Phoenix has in power forward position that they compensate easily Ricky's and Towns' lack of defense?
Mikkeman wrote:
If Bledsoe is better than Ricky, Chandler even at ancient age is still clearly better than Towns, Booker ins't any worse than Lavine and rest of the wings are about same level than Wolves wings, does that mean that Dieng and Bjelica are just so much better than anything Phoenix has in power forward position that they compensate easily Ricky's and Towns' lack of defense?
We don't have a wing in the same stratosphere defensively as Tucker.is.
