CoolBreeze44 wrote:Anybody else seen a definite improvement in Lavine's D? It's not where it needs to be but I see it as improved in two areas
1) Denying dribble penetration
2) Being more aware in the team concept.
I think Robson unfairly addresses Zach's D in the article. He's working hard and the results are getting better.
Glad he pointed out the difficulty in playing with Martin. It's been a common theme in my posts this year.
Zach is slipping picks better than before, and he tends to stay in the play longer. He used to just give up once he lost his man.
Agreed. He is also more engaged on his man and gets in a stance more staying lower and keeps his feet quick to stay in front of guys. Because he seems to be all arms and legs sometimes he gets his feet too wide (might be part of Martin's issues) and he can't change direction quick enough. If he can learn to stay in front of PGs at any decent rate he is gonna be fun to watch against SGs. He will get stronger too over the years.
It's tough with KMart. We need what he brings, but it comes at the expense of other things we need. Problem is he will never accept what should be his role on this team. That is - 15 minutes per game where he plays the role of shooter and gives everything he has on the defensive end. If you're going to play him 30 minutes, you are going to see the best and worst of him.
CoolBreeze44 wrote:It's tough with KMart. We need what he brings, but it comes at the expense of other things we need. Problem is he will never accept what should be his role on this team. That is - 15 minutes per game where he plays the role of shooter and gives everything he has on the defensive end. If you're going to play him 30 minutes, you are going to see the best and worst of him.
You put it pretty well in this post. Martin might already be giving everything he has on defense. Lol We don't know what role he would accept. He is still here and Flip talked a couple times that he and Martin talked about having a lesser role as a bench scorer down the road. We know Flip was good at selling things so...who knows...maybe without Flip to sell him he changes his mind.
Let's look at Martin another way...we want to trade him to a playoff team right? Why not keep him for ourselves? Why trade an efficient 20ppg scorer if he is willing to accept a smaller role and you figure out how to make minutes for everyone like a good team has to do? At this point it's probably more about Martin and what he wants to do than anything else. I am not saying that Martin is a diva and has all the power it's just that of you can keep him and he is happy why not? If David Lee made a lot less and was happy in GS he would still be there. If some team blows the Wolves away with an offer maybe that changes things but I don't know what kind of offer a team would give up for a possible partial season rental of Martin although they would have his bird rights. We don't know what Martin plans to do beyond this year and that makes it even more tricky and part of the reason moving him while he has value makes sense and why we keep talking about it and why keeping him to a certain extent doesn't make sense.
bleedspeed177 wrote:That is why the Bulls need us to trade MArtin to them for Portis and McDermott
We would be fortunate to get one of those guys not both. Lol I would actually consider doing the deal for McDermott because he could give us the type of shooter the Wolves need but I doubt the Bulls would do that deal. He fits with what they want to do pretty well.
This team is in an exciting period of transition. The early emergence of Towns as a reliable scorer makes us look at Martin's points more as a luxury rather than a necessity. I was expecting the desire to make him expendable to be much more in the future. I have always hoped that Bazz could step up into the 3rd scorer role, and am excited that this is already being pushed forward generally amongst people who are following the team. It is a great sign that the vets are already starting to truly look like placeholders rather than no brainer go to options. We are coming. Go Wolves.
I'm getting sick is of the idea that we need 5 good defenders in the starting lineup to play good defense. There are so many teams in this league that are successful with average to below average defenders in their starting 5's that provide great offense. Putting either Zach or Bazz in the starting lineup is not going to submarine the entire defense. Few teams have their second best wing as a potential dominant offensive force and the offensive upgrade over Prince would be huge.
Right now Zach is at 98/103, Bazz at 95.4/105.4 and Martin at 91.8/105.2 for offensive and defensive ratings according to nbadotcom. For a veteran that is unacceptable and trying to find excuses for Martin is ridiculous. He's the veteran of the 3. He's the one who has played his way out of the rotation. If he doesn't improve by the end of the month he needs to be gone because right now the numbers point to him being the problem. We don't need two black hole scorers on the second unit in Bazz and Martin (seriously, they have 3.9 and 3.8 assist percentages compared to Zach's 25.4). With NB on the second unit stretching the floor, Martin's shooting isn't as valuable as some are trying to make it out to be. Lavine is pretty much even with or outplaying Martin in almost every facet of the game right now with the excepting of FG% and overall scoring and he's playing in a much tougher role. I've always said if the two are close you go with Zach. I think the added minutes for Bazz and Zach would help them get into better rhythms and all their numbers would go up. Martin surprisingly is the worst rotation player on the team right now so if that doesn't change quickly he needs to go because that is unacceptable from a 32 year old veteran.
To be fair... with a young team like the Wolves... a 24 ppg scorer (per 36 minutes) has a role if used correctly. That's what Martin is in a small sample size. Last season, he averaged 28 ppg or more in 1/4 of the games he played.
That's legit scoring. Does it come at a price in other ways? Maybe... probably.
I just cringe a bit when I see LaVine and "ouplaying" in any context right now. There's very little I like about the kid's game thus far. We all have players we like to watch or not watch play. And I can definitely see why Martin is a guy many people don't like to watch.
But he's a better player than Zach LaVine right now. Maybe dumping Martin and using those minutes for LaVine will change that because at least LaVine will be playing a position he has promise and possibly even legit potential at.
Note: basketballreference has different O and D ratings:
AbeVigodaLive wrote:To be fair... with a young team like the Wolves... a 24 ppg scorer (per 36 minutes) has a role if used correctly. That's what Martin is in a small sample size. Last season, he averaged 28 ppg or more in 1/4 of the games he played.
That's legit scoring. Does it come at a price in other ways? Maybe... probably.
I just cringe a bit when I see LaVine and "ouplaying" in any context right now. There's very little I like about the kid's game thus far. We all have players we like to watch or not watch play. And I can definitely see why Martin is a guy many people don't like to watch.
But he's a better player than Zach LaVine right now. Maybe dumping Martin and using those minutes for LaVine will change that because at least LaVine will be playing a position he has promise and possibly even legit potential at.
Note: basketballreference has different O and D ratings:
O Ratings:
Martin - 113
LaVine - 87
D Ratings:
Martin - 102
LaVine - 101
B-Refs ratings have always been wrong. They do some weird thing were your rating can change based on how guys play when you aren't even on the court. Look at KG and Prince's ratings and tell me how they are plus anything this year.
Also Martin isn't even shooting 3's at a better clip than Zach. Literally the only things he statistically does better than Zach at this point is score more and do it more efficiently and turn it over less which isn't hard to do when Zach is playing out of position at PG. If Martin's 3pt shooting isn't there how can his scoring not be easily replaced by Bazz and then Lavine's more all-around game benefit the team around him better at the 2? Zach passes a lot more, plays better defense, rebounds better and isn't a black hole. How does just scoring more trump all of that? Martin is getting by based on reputation on this board, not by how he's actually played because he's played a terrible brand of team basketball which is why he is statistically the worst rotation player on the team right now in every team play statistic.
