FIBA Tournament Play

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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

Q12543 wrote:
Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:
longstrangetrip wrote:I should probably defer to Mikkeman when it comes to Euro FIBA basketball, but I didn't really see a physical team until I saw Lithuania today. Raduljica was able to overpower every front line he faced and Bjelica seemed comfortable going inside too, but not tonight against Lithuania's bigs. Bjelica was largely invisible for most of the game, seemingly content to just hang around the 3-point line. I think it was a little bit of a reality check for Bjelica bandwagon jumpers like myself who perhaps got a little overheated about Nemanja's prospects. I still like him as a shooter and facilitator, but it looks like he might be overmatched inside in the NBA...looks like he is what some of us originally thought he was. Regardless, he can be a valuable addition emphasizing the things he does well, but I don't know that I see him as our future starting PF.


Fiba games seem to have less spacing due to shorter 3pt arc. Also I don't remember a single defensive 3 second call in the games I saw. It can be really clogged there. It's more of a shooter's game. So I don't think that you can have a good indication of how Bjelica will be able to penetrate in the NBA.



Good points. LST also has a little bit of Lipoli in him, in that he tends to make summary judgements based on a one-game outcome......but then may change positions again after the next game.

By the way, that's not necessarily a criticism of Lip or LST, it's more of an observation of fan behavior in general during or just after a game, especially in Lip's case. who is often there in person. Once the dust settles and we have a chance to review things in totality, logic tends to prevail.

My hope for Bjelica is that we have a smart, competent backup PF and spot starter that won't hurt us while on the floor and may at times be a catalyst with the right matchups. A rich man's Robbie Hummel is what I'm hoping for.


Unless I'm not understanding Brooklyn Wolves' points (welcome to the board by the way!) I think he may have misunderstood my point. I agree that the shorter 3-point arc and lack of defensive 3-second calls would tend to clog the lane and make it more difficult to operate in there, but how do you then explain the way Raduljica was able to dominate inside most of the tournament? He's a guy who was a laughing stock with the Wolves this year, but until today's game, he looked like Shaquille O'Neal during the FIBA tournament. I don't believe Raduljica suddenly learned to play basketball, so I attribute his success in the previous games to the relative lack of inside defensive presence in the European game. The Lithuanian team is not as physical as any NBA team, but they seemed much longer and more physical than any FIBA team I had seen previously. And lo and behold, Raduljica was ineffective and Bjelica stayed out around the arc and didn't rebound. I admit I'm making an assertion based on one game, or more accurately based on the difference between today's game and all the previous FIBA games I watched. But Bjelica's inability to be effective inside today either scoring or rebounding made me believe that he will struggle inside in the NBA. Where is my analysis off base here?

Q, my hope is that Bjelica proves to be a rich man's Hummel also...something about him reminds me of Robbie, although more skilled with the ball. But I don't think we should expect him to rebound as effectively as Hummel did, or to be as physical on defense (Robbie was in the upper quartile in the league in taking charges after all).
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Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167] »

Radulica was running over smaller centers until he ran into Jonas V who is equally big and physical, so Radulica's limitations in skill and athleticism were highlighted.

As for Bjelica: He got 24 and 10 against an NBA frontcourt of Mirotic/Gasol. Not every NBA team is big and physical. Lithuania played defense with crazy intensity. A lot of NBA teams don't bring it. A lot of NBA coaches don't know how to coach defense. You make it sound like NBA is all bad bad grizzly mofos, but it's just not true.
And Hummel wiuld never sniff Euroleague MVP honors.
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Monster
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by Monster »

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:Radulica was running over smaller centers until he ran into Jonas V who is equally big and physical, so Radulica's limitations in skill and athleticism were highlighted.

As for Bjelica: He got 24 and 10 against an NBA frontcourt of Mirotic/Gasol. Not every NBA team is big and physical. Lithuania played defense with crazy intensity. A lot of NBA teams don't bring it. A lot of NBA coaches don't know how to coach defense. You make it sound like NBA is all bad bad grizzly mofos, but it's just not true.
And Hummel wiuld never sniff Euroleague MVP honors.


Let's keep in mind though Robbie averaged 10-4 in 20mpg coming off a knee injury as a rookie in Europe.

I didn't watch the game but that's a low score. International games can be allowed to be very physical from what I understand. This one seemed to be that. Bjelica fouled out so does anyone have comments on that? Bad fouls? Questionable calls?
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:Radulica was running over smaller centers until he ran into Jonas V who is equally big and physical, so Radulica's limitations in skill and athleticism were highlighted.

As for Bjelica: He got 24 and 10 against an NBA frontcourt of Mirotic/Gasol. Not every NBA team is big and physical. Lithuania played defense with crazy intensity. A lot of NBA teams don't bring it. A lot of NBA coaches don't know how to coach defense. You make it sound like NBA is all bad bad grizzly mofos, but it's just not true.
And Hummel wiuld never sniff Euroleague MVP honors.


I definitely agree with your first paragraph, Brooklyn, but I still think Lithuania looked more like an NBA team defensively than any other European team I watched in the tournament. That Spain team that Bjelica had such a good game against seemed very soft to me. Don't get me wrong...I'm still bullish on Nemanja. I just think his role with the Wolves is going to be an outside role only...I don't see him as ready for the kind of banging he is going to see here. The Raduljica situation is a perfect example of a guy who can excel at the European level, but is completely neutralized when his physicality is matched.
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bleedspeed
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by bleedspeed »

Lets step back a little on Raduljica.

The guy was here about a month in the middle of the season. Maybe things didn't click for him here. Obviously they didn't. It might not be the best example of what he is capable of. I wouldn't let his success mean that Bjelica's success is flawed.
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Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167]
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by Brooklyn_Wolves [enjin:14608167] »

longstrangetrip wrote:
I definitely agree with your first paragraph, Brooklyn, but I still think Lithuania looked more like an NBA team defensively than any other European team I watched in the tournament. That Spain team that Bjelica had such a good game against seemed very soft to me. Don't get me wrong...I'm still bullish on Nemanja. I just think his role with the Wolves is going to be an outside role only...I don't see him as ready for the kind of banging he is going to see here. The Raduljica situation is a perfect example of a guy who can excel at the European level, but is completely neutralized when his physicality is matched.


Well, Bjelica is obviously not a banger. He's no Kevin Love who can score from the low post and pull a dozen boards daily. But he's a superior ball-handler who can make his way to the rim if the floor is spaced enough, he also can drive and kick the ball to shooters on the outside and cutters near the rim. He's not going to bang, not sure where you are getting this from. He's a wing player in PF body. He also knows how to clean the defensive glass as he's got length and nose for the ball.
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longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564]
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by longstrangetrip [enjin:6600564] »

Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:
longstrangetrip wrote:
I definitely agree with your first paragraph, Brooklyn, but I still think Lithuania looked more like an NBA team defensively than any other European team I watched in the tournament. That Spain team that Bjelica had such a good game against seemed very soft to me. Don't get me wrong...I'm still bullish on Nemanja. I just think his role with the Wolves is going to be an outside role only...I don't see him as ready for the kind of banging he is going to see here. The Raduljica situation is a perfect example of a guy who can excel at the European level, but is completely neutralized when his physicality is matched.


Well, Bjelica is obviously not a banger. He's no Kevin Love who can score from the low post and pull a dozen boards daily. But he's a superior ball-handler who can make his way to the rim if the floor is spaced enough, he also can drive and kick the ball to shooters on the outside and cutters near the rim. He's not going to bang, not sure where you are getting this from. He's a wing player in PF body. He also knows how to clean the defensive glass as he's got length and nose for the ball.


I would say the jury is still out on how good he is going to clean the glass in the NBA, but other than that, I think you described his game perfectly. I also like his ability to put the ball on the floor and get to the rim, although I'm a little puzzled that he didn't try to do this once in the Lithuania game. He seemed content just to linger out by the arc for some reason...perhaps it was the presence of Valencuinas. I'm intrigued by this guy, though, and looking forward to some productive minutes from him.
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by MikkeMan »

monsterpile wrote:
Let's keep in mind though Robbie averaged 10-4 in 20mpg coming off a knee injury as a rookie in Europe.

I didn't watch the game but that's a low score. International games can be allowed to be very physical from what I understand. This one seemed to be that. Bjelica fouled out so does anyone have comments on that? Bad fouls? Questionable calls?


I didn't yet have time to watch whole game but I watched first half. At least Bjelica's first foul was legit. It was no layups allowed type of foul on Valenciunas under the basket. Second one was little bit stupid one but also little bit questionable call. He was playing really tight defense on perimeter and got foul about small body contact. I checked play by play about rest of the game and it seems that his 3rd foul might have been a bad one. He fouled Kuzminskas in lay-up and he still made it and got bonus free throw. 4th foul was offensive one and last I guess was intentional to stop the clock in the end of game.
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by MikkeMan »

Bjelica played one more game in Eurobasket. Serbia lost bronze medal game to France and that game was pretty bad from Bjelica. He had 12 points, 6 rebounds and 3 assists in 32 minutes but had just 4/11 FG% and -22 plus/minus. Bjelica had 5 points in six 4th quarter minutes.
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Re: FIBA Tournament Play

Post by MikkeMan »

longstrangetrip wrote:
Unless I'm not understanding Brooklyn Wolves' points (welcome to the board by the way!) I think he may have misunderstood my point. I agree that the shorter 3-point arc and lack of defensive 3-second calls would tend to clog the lane and make it more difficult to operate in there, but how do you then explain the way Raduljica was able to dominate inside most of the tournament? He's a guy who was a laughing stock with the Wolves this year, but until today's game, he looked like Shaquille O'Neal during the FIBA tournament. I don't believe Raduljica suddenly learned to play basketball, so I attribute his success in the previous games to the relative lack of inside defensive presence in the European game.


I don't remember many 4 points on 2/9 shooting with 3 turnovers or 7 points on 3/8 shooting games from Shaq. Those were Raduljica's numbers in games against Spain and Germany. So Raduljica was hardly putting Shaq like performances in Eurobasket even before Lithuania game. He had one really good game against small front line of Finland and quite lot of success in finishing pick and roll plays against Turkey, Czechs and Italy. But his performance in those games was quite well in line with his best NBA games with Milwaukee. (Raduljica has had some 12 pts with 6/8 FG like games also in NBA)

Generally Raduljica won't have problem with physicality but like Pek he really struggles finishing against length in post. Actually I think Raduljica is clearly worse against length than Pek. Gasol, Valensiunas and that big German center made Raduljica's post scoring attempts look miserable. I recall each of them blocking several of his shots. Still Raduljica can score even against teams with length in center position but his scoring have to come mainly as a roll man in pick and roll plays. If opponent defends those plays well or they help more by allowing some corner threes, Raduljica's offense is pretty much non existing.

longstrangetrip wrote: The Lithuanian team is not as physical as any NBA team, but they seemed much longer and more physical than any FIBA team I had seen previously. And lo and behold, Raduljica was ineffective and Bjelica stayed out around the arc and didn't rebound. I admit I'm making an assertion based on one game, or more accurately based on the difference between today's game and all the previous FIBA games I watched. But Bjelica's inability to be effective inside today either scoring or rebounding made me believe that he will struggle inside in the NBA. Where is my analysis off base here?


I agree that Lithuania game was more physical than other games what I have seen in tournament. That was basically first game that was same level in terms of physicality than typical Euroleague games are and since he has had a lot of success in Euroleague, I don't think that physical play would be problem for him.

I did see only first half of Lithuania game but I remember seeing Bjelica driving several times to hoop and his drives resulted at least one field goal from him and two beautiful assists to his team members. I think Bjelica's main problem was lack of touches in 1st half since Teodosic was once again dominating the ball. (Bjelica had 4 FGA in 1st half while Teodosic had 8.)

longstrangetrip wrote: Q, my hope is that Bjelica proves to be a rich man's Hummel also...something about him reminds me of Robbie, although more skilled with the ball. But I don't think we should expect him to rebound as effectively as Hummel did, or to be as physical on defense (Robbie was in the upper quartile in the league in taking charges after all).


LST, I hope you are joking in your last paragraph. Bjelica has been superior rebounder compared to Hummel in Europe so far. So I have really big problem to see that he would fail to grab rebounds at least same rate in NBA than Robbie. Below are their ACB pace adjusted per 40 minutes rebounding numbers:

Bjelica:
2010/11: 7.1
2011/12: 8.3
2012/13: 9.4

Hummel:
2012/13: 7.7

Remember also that Bjelica got his numbers in much better Euroleague team when Hummel got his in some middle of the pack team where he had less competition about defensive boards. Based on his Euroleague numbers Bjelica's rebounding has even further improved in last two seasons, so I would be really disappointed if he wouldn't be at least same level rebounder in NBA than Robbie.
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