Big O wrote:Alex, my issue with your take is that most of Flips trades make no difference long term. Mo Williams and Brewer were on short term deals that would expire long before the team became relevant. Thad for 1st made sense at the time because Flip believed we could make the playoffs. Once it was clear that was not in the cards due to injuries, that was no longer going to be part our long term success. The draft picks you bitch about are just starting their 2nd or 3rd years - way to early to judge. Bud = bad. Of course the Cavs were title contenders - they were going to be with or without the trade.
Buying out Bennett at this stage of the season is a mistake. I would have brought him to camp and let him earn a job. If he doesn't cut it buy him out later, not now.
The biggest mistake in my opinion was a first for Payne. (and you didn't even mention that blunder)
Do you think trading away a first round pick because you believe that post-Kevin Love team could make the playoffs is reasonable?
If Flip were to have an interview today and justify that trade by saying, "well, I really thought we could make the playoffs with Thad Young as our power forward" then that alone is pure stupidity. It's not a defense. It's a demonstration of why you are a bad GM. Your poor judgment led to a bad decision for a rebuilding franchise.
I never understood why he made the deal at the time that he did. The Hawks NEEDED to make that deal to open up a roster spot and clear salary. If the Wolves had traded for him this offseason, it really wouldn't of made that big of difference with anything. Was being able to have Payne on the roster for half a season really worth having to risk ANYTHING?
Big O wrote:Alex, my issue with your take is that most of Flips trades make no difference long term. Mo Williams and Brewer were on short term deals that would expire long before the team became relevant. Thad for 1st made sense at the time because Flip believed we could make the playoffs. Once it was clear that was not in the cards due to injuries, that was no longer going to be part our long term success. The draft picks you bitch about are just starting their 2nd or 3rd years - way to early to judge. Bud = bad. Of course the Cavs were title contenders - they were going to be with or without the trade.
Buying out Bennett at this stage of the season is a mistake. I would have brought him to camp and let him earn a job. If he doesn't cut it buy him out later, not now.
The biggest mistake in my opinion was a first for Payne. (and you didn't even mention that blunder)
Do you think trading away a first round pick because you believe that post-Kevin Love team could make the playoffs is reasonable?
If Flip were to have an interview today and justify that trade by saying, "well, I really thought we could make the playoffs with Thad Young as our power forward" then that alone is pure stupidity. It's not a defense. It's a demonstration of why you are a bad GM. Your poor judgment led to a bad decision for a rebuilding franchise.
Bingo. Khan thought that Flynn could be a dynamic threat off the bench, and Darko could be Chris Webber. Doesn't make them good deals at the time because he thought they were. Everybody thinks that the move they made at the time was a good one
60WinTim wrote:LST -- it's not even a first round pick next year, but in 2017. So we have TWO years for Payne to show us he was worthy of a late first round pick...
It's basically damned if you do damned if you don't deal. If the Wolves make the playoffs great, but it will cut our feet out from underneath us a bit. If it's a second rounder, that means the Wolves still haven't made the playoffs and the pick will probably be coming from the Seattle Timberwolves
We are certainly damned if we don't make the playoffs through 2020...that's a scary thought. But I don't think we are damned in other more probable scenarios. The earliest we have to convey the pick is 2017, and most of us here think that two years from now a nucleus of Wiggins, Towns, Rubio, Shabazz, Lavine, Bjelica, Dieng plus whatever, should be a solid playoff team. If we are playoff team by 2017, and we have to give up pick #22 that year, I'm not going to be upset. We have plenty of young talent at this point and a late first rounder isn't going to be a game changer for us.
60WinTim wrote:LST -- it's not even a first round pick next year, but in 2017. So we have TWO years for Payne to show us he was worthy of a late first round pick...
It's basically damned if you do damned if you don't deal. If the Wolves make the playoffs great, but it will cut our feet out from underneath us a bit. If it's a second rounder, that means the Wolves still haven't made the playoffs and the pick will probably be coming from the Seattle Timberwolves
We are certainly damned if we don't make the playoffs through 2020...that's a scary thought. But I don't think we are damned in other more probable scenarios. The earliest we have to convey the pick is 2017, and most of us here think that two years from now a nucleus of Wiggins, Towns, Rubio, Shabazz, Lavine, Bjelica, Dieng plus whatever, should be a solid playoff team. If we are playoff team by 2017, and we have to give up pick #22 that year, I'm not going to be upset. We have plenty of young talent at this point and a late first rounder isn't going to be a game changer for us.
No but you could send it to a team to get like a Corey Brewer to help cement your playoff run. For playoff teams, those picks are used to fill the tiny holes in your team that other coaches are able to exploit in the playoffs. Hey it might be a Payne type player, but what if the Wolves need shooting, or a backup PG? Now you either can't make the deal, have to give up a good player on your roster, or give another future pick that could hamper your future like the Nets and Knicks did
This team has given up an awful lot of picks over the years and butchered a bunch of 1st round picks. Prudent use of draft picks, whether kept or conveyed, has never been our strong suit. I think it's dulled some of our senses ("Oh well, it's just a mid-first rounder". "Oh well, it's just three 2nd rounders". "Oh well, it's just......).
Brooklyn_Wolves wrote:LOL, so Wolves are finally sitting pretty with two 1st overall pick plus a bunch of other young talents but you guys come here to b/tch about freaking Payne?! Haha LOSERS!!!
Yeah, we are probably spending too much time talking about this trade. Payne should be our 3rd string PF this year, and if the Wolves woeful playoff record continues, the asset we give up for him would be a second rounder in 2021...not a very consequential trade for either team. But I take a more optimistic viewpoint, and think that the Adreian Payne I watched in Vegas this summer will be one of several contributors that will help the Wolves get to the playoffs this year. And if so, it would be difficult to get to upset about not having a pick somewhere in the 20s next year...we'll be too busy analyzing our first round opponent!
Yeah, lost in these conversations is the fact that 99% of mid to late first round picks are at beat rotation players. Payne only needs to be solid contributor to justify the pick.
Kawhi Leonard, Jimmy Butler, Eric Bledsoe, Serge Ibaka, Jeff Teague, Rudy Gobert, The Greek Freek, Kyle Lowry, Vucevic, Ty Lawson, Jrue Holiday, Rajon Rondo, Demarre Carroll, Ryan Anderson might disagree with your math.
Q12543 wrote:This team has given up an awful lot of picks over the years and butchered a bunch of 1st round picks. Prudent use of draft picks, whether kept or conveyed, has never been our strong suit. I think it's dulled some of our senses ("Oh well, it's just a mid-first rounder". "Oh well, it's just three 2nd rounders". "Oh well, it's just......).
I'm just glad we could save Glen Taylor some money along the way. Guy needs it
longstrangetrip wrote:Here is the problem.
Bleed, you mention that Portis is the kind of guy that you can get with a #20 pick, and I agree. But I would argue that we already have a Bobby Portis type guy on our roster...and his name is Adreian Payne.
Payne is 24 years old and going in his second season. Portis is 20 years old it was his first experience as a pro. It is a huge gap in my opinion.
bleedspeed177 wrote:Here is the problem.
Bleed, you mention that Portis is the kind of guy that you can get with a #20 pick, and I agree. But I would argue that we already have a Bobby Portis type guy on our roster...and his name is Adreian Payne.
Payne is 24 years old and going in his second season. Portis is 20 years old it was his first experience as a pro. It is a huge gap in my opinion.
Exactly. That's what was so frustrating with Payne. 4 years at Michigan State under Izzo should be the equivalent of getting a PhD in basketball intelligence. Yet Payne looked absolutely clueless at times.
The one thing I do like about Payne is that he does seem to play his ass off. Hustle can take you places. My view is that he needs to channel his inner Kenneth Faried and basically carve out a niche as a blue collar type guy that takes charges, gets offensive boards, wins loose balls, and generally annoys opponents.
