Wiggins is a huge disappoinrment

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

If you peel back the numbers, the two areas Wiggins falls short in versus some of these other past rookie wings is rebounding and 2-point FG%, especially the latter.

As for rebounding, my observation is that Wiggins has poor hands. It seems like he gets in the area of a lot of balls, but can't secure the rebound. I have no idea if this is the type of thing that improves over time or not.

The 2-point FG% is what's really killing him: 39%. That is Rubio territory without doing all the other things Rubio does so well. I think better off-the-ball cuts and running the floor harder would help a great deal. 13 dunks for a dude that athletic is hard to comprehend.

Otherwise, he is about average with most other top rookie wings in terms of steals, blocks, assist rate, etc.

Defensively, I think he is ahead most of them, although that's more difficult to actually measure. He isn't lockdown yet, but he's pretty damn good right now and that is indeed rare for such a young rookie.

So, to summarize: Ahead as a man defender; about average in assists, steals, blocks, points; behind in rebounding; way behind in two-point field goal efficiency.

[khans2k5 [enjin:6608728]]

You'd think Wiggins was pulled straight out of the garbage can with the way you talk about him Cam. At this point I don't see how you aren't rooting against him to succeed because of how aggressively you put him down and try to down play what he can become. I guess I shouldn't be surprised with you though because you've always been quick on the trigger to evaluate players. I guess Parker and Stauskas are garbage also because they haven't been any more impressive than Wiggins to date and they both came into the league with polished offensive games. You're capping his potential 20 games into his career. I'm glad you aren't a scout for the Wolves or we'd be running through young players left and right because they aren't wowing you enough 20 games into their careers.

Maybe I hold No. 1 picks to a higher level of play then you do. I expect to see consistent effort with signs of stardom. I haven't seen that from Wiggins. If he was picked 20th, then my opinion of him might be different. That's not the case, though. He's the prospect that was the centerpiece of the Kevin Love trade. Perhaps my standards of top picks are too high? Or perhaps he was your guy pre-draft and you're blinded by hype and personal opinion.

You say I'm too quick on my evaluations. Why do you say that? Because of my opinions on Wiggins and Bennett? Those are the only two that you get pissy about with me. I've brought up Waiters, Hardaway, Henson, Oladipo, Butler (before this year) and others as guys that I like a lot, but apparently I don't let players evolve... More nonsense, khans. It's player by player case. And I'm not thrilled with Stauskas to this point either, just so you know.

Also, when did I cap anybody's potential? I've been very consistent in saying Wiggins has a high ceiling due to great physical tools. Now you're trying to put words that I never said. Am I impressed with him? Nope, and I've said my reasons why. Am I sure that he'll ever reach his ceiling as a player? Hell no. I can't call him a for sure star like you, doper, LST, world and others have.

Nobody is saying he is a sure fire star. We just aren't letting 20 games alter our opinion that he has a strong chance at becoming a star with his physical gifts and the fact that he is really only some tightening up of his game from being a good overall player already. There's a reason he was the centerpiece for the Love trade. Cleveland included him because they knew he was a couple years away from being good and they don't have time to waste with Lebron in his prime. We took him because we knew he could be special in this league someday. You criticized his offensive potential before the draft so why does going #1 and then being traded to us just throw that out the window and raise your expectations to being good right away? You knew it wasn't going to be great right away before the draft so why are your expectations so much higher now when the only thing that changed was he was actually drafted and traded? That makes no sense to me. He's played exactly how he was scouted to play this year and yet the fact that he went number 1 and was the centerpiece of the trade for an All-Star means he just has to get better out of thin air to earn those accolades? Flip didn't trade Love to get better this year. He traded him to get better for the next 10, but that is going to take growing pains like this season to get accomplished.

[thedoper]

Why does doper get so upset and start making stuff up whenever this topic comes up?

I am not upset. I love Wiggins and the rest of this crappy team. You seem to enjoy taking the negative stance on every point of this team. I can't blame you, we have a depressing history. As for making stuff up, I just like the comedic aspect of saying random nonsense. Maybe I am the only one who finds it funny. My basic stance is that there are other much more logical things to be frustrated about than the lack of contribution of a 19 year old without a pg.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Why does doper get so upset and start making stuff up whenever this topic comes up?

I am not upset. I love Wiggins and the rest of this crappy team. You seem to enjoy taking the negative stance on every point of this team. I can't blame you, we have a depressing history. As for making stuff up, I just like the comedic aspect of saying random nonsense. Maybe I am the only one who finds it funny. My basic stance is that there are other much more logical things to be frustrated about than the lack of contribution of a 19 year old without a pg.

So you're saying it's illogical to point out anything with the Wolves that's not fluffy bunnies, rainbow unicorns and ice cream sundaes?

Do I enjoy taking a negative stance? Or, am I realist? I use stats and basketball history to back almost any claim I make on this forum. It just turns out the Wolves fall on the short end of both of those things more often than not.

[Carlos Danger]

Do I enjoy taking a negative stance? Or, am I realist? I use stats and basketball history to back almost any claim I make on this forum. It just turns out the Wolves fall on the short end of both of those things more often than not.

If you use stats, then you should be familiar with "sample size". It's been a 19 year old's first 26 games - almost all of which have been played with 2nd, 3rd and even 4th string Point Guards. Attempting to draw any long term conclusions from that data is not what I would call "a realist".

[thedoper]

Do I enjoy taking a negative stance? Or, am I realist? I use stats and basketball history to back almost any claim I make on this forum. It just turns out the Wolves fall on the short end of both of those things more often than not.

If you use stats, then you should be familiar with "sample size". It's been a 19 year old's first 26 games - almost all of which have been played with 2nd, 3rd and even 4th string Point Guards. Attempting to draw any long term conclusions from that data is not what I would call "a realist".

Couldn't have said it better Carlos. All stats are best used in context. I know your a realist, I just don't see the same reality as you from a 26 game sample size with the injury situation on our team. I think it is more logical to relax at this point than to feel disappointment about Wiggins contribution to this season. So there are still a lot of games to play and your realist approach can become further solidified with statistical evidence or not. I was probably reading you wrong, I always got the impression you were kind of ok about being snarky and sarcastic about the Wolves being losers. I always enjoy your posts for their comedic, dry sensibilities. I am sorry if you really are disappointed about Wiggins. I hope it doesn't affect your mood too much.

[AbeVigodaLive]

Do I enjoy taking a negative stance? Or, am I realist? I use stats and basketball history to back almost any claim I make on this forum. It just turns out the Wolves fall on the short end of both of those things more often than not.

If you use stats, then you should be familiar with "sample size". It's been a 19 year old's first 26 games - almost all of which have been played with 2nd, 3rd and even 4th string Point Guards. Attempting to draw any long term conclusions from that data is not what I would call "a realist".

But I never drew any long-term conclusions. In fact, I added a disclaimer in almost every post... Even though he's not necessarily playing well... it's too early to make any long-term conclusions. That doesn't mean we can't comment on those 26 games for what they are. And compare them to other top-rated prospects in the past.

But apparently, q and I are not being clear enough when we say Wiggins' future can't be projected yet. So what more do you want from us other than agreeing with you that despite the uneven performances thus far we're 100% certain Wiggins will be a superstar?

[AbeVigodaLive]

Do I enjoy taking a negative stance? Or, am I realist? I use stats and basketball history to back almost any claim I make on this forum. It just turns out the Wolves fall on the short end of both of those things more often than not.

If you use stats, then you should be familiar with "sample size". It's been a 19 year old's first 26 games - almost all of which have been played with 2nd, 3rd and even 4th string Point Guards. Attempting to draw any long term conclusions from that data is not what I would call "a realist".

Couldn't have said it better Carlos. All stats are best used in context. I know your a realist, I just don't see the same reality as you from a 26 game sample size with the injury situation on our team. I think it is more logical to relax at this point than to feel disappointment about Wiggins contribution to this season. So there are still a lot of games to play and your realist approach can become further solidified with statistical evidence or not. I was probably reading you wrong, I always got the impression you were kind of ok about being snarky and sarcastic about the Wolves being losers. I always enjoy your posts for their comedic, dry sensibilities. I am sorry if you really are disappointed about Wiggins. I hope it doesn't affect your mood too much.

I think you take my objective assessments as something more than they are. I think if anything... it should be pretty clear that I don't get too emotional about anything concerning the Wolves.

I love the game of basketball. And I love the NBA. And I enjoy discussing the ins and outs of the game/teams/players.

[thedoper]

I think you take my objective assessments as something more than they are. I think if anything... it should be pretty clear that I don't get too emotional about anything concerning the Wolves.

Perhaps you are taking my objective assessments the same way? I assume we are all here for some minor entertainment. I enjoy your posts, and trying to provide some quelling of the desire to crown Wiggins. I look at what he has as a 19 year old and still see all the foundations for greatness and as someone who is executing to precisely what I would expect given the circumstances. You look at him and focus on the well-documented holes in his game that are manifesting themselves statistically so far in the season. Either evaluation is done with limited data and a lot of unknowns in the future.

[Carlos Danger]

But I never drew any long-term conclusions. In fact, I added a disclaimer in almost every post... Even though he's not necessarily playing well... it's too early to make any long-term conclusions. That doesn't mean we can't comment on those 26 games for what they are. And compare them to other top-rated prospects in the past.

But apparently, q and I are not being clear enough when we say Wiggins' future can't be projected yet. So what more do you want from us other than agreeing with you that despite the uneven performances thus far we're 100% certain Wiggins will be a superstar?

You can't compare Wiggins 1st 26 games to prior #1 overall picks first full seasons and then state that Wiggins is way behind and therefore not looking like he will be a star. Wiggins' 1st 26 games is simply not enough data - especially considering he's had to play much of it with LaVine or Corey Brewer running the offense. Furthermore (as others pointed out), it really doesn't matter if they are #1 overall or not. Some of those guys were older, others played completely differerent postions etc., etc. In a nutshell...let's just put a pin in this until Wiggins gets to play a couple months with Rubio. If he still looks the same, then I may start to worry. But it's just way too early now.