Who Will Flip Take

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

I originally wrote up a fairly long reply to these two posts, but I thought in order to better understand both of your thoughts and feelings on Okafor vs. Towns, I should ask these questions instead.

1) Going into the draft last year, would you have selected Parker or Wiggins?
2) At the end of the season, would you have selected Parker or Wiggins?

(Note: Yes, I do realize Parker is hard to judge at this point because of his injury, but I hope you can at least try to speculate.)

I ask because I feel like there are a lot of similarities between the two sets of guys despite playing different positions, and I would have chosen Wiggins to answer both questions above.

I like where you are going with this, and it might bring a lot more clarity to the discusssion. I was a wiggins fan over parker, and surprisingly I believe Cam was really high on Parker. Funny how we went opposite directions with the wings.

My biggest fear with Okafor is his FT shooting, but playing good PnR is something that can be taught. For all the touting on Towns D, he doesn't seem to be much playing man to man down low, and that is something that Okafor has the base to do well. I also think you can turn any player into a passable defender in one season, whereas becoming a dominant scorer takes several years if ever.

...except you can't. Enes Kanter has never been a passable defender. Same with Kevin Martin. Same with Amare Stoudemire. Same with Andrea Bargnani. Same with.....you get my point.

You can certainly hide offensively gifted players on defense if you have 3 or 4 other defensive studs out there, but there are some guys who are always a liability defensively. Center happens to be one of those positions that is tough to hide defensively, although it can be done (Charlotte has done a great job surrounding Al Jefferson with outstanding perimeter defenders - too bad they can't shoot!).

Okafor certainly has the physical gifts to be a solid defender. So did all those other guys I mentioned. He's been in the habit of playing soft defense for the better part of the last decade because he was so important on offense, his coaches needed him to avoid fouling. That passivity will be a very tough habit to break.

I view Towns as sort of a bigger (and potentially better) version of Al Horford - a true two-way player that won't go off for 25PPG, but is a main cog both on offense and defense.

[mjs34]

I originally wrote up a fairly long reply to these two posts, but I thought in order to better understand both of your thoughts and feelings on Okafor vs. Towns, I should ask these questions instead.

1) Going into the draft last year, would you have selected Parker or Wiggins?
2) At the end of the season, would you have selected Parker or Wiggins?

(Note: Yes, I do realize Parker is hard to judge at this point because of his injury, but I hope you can at least try to speculate.)

I ask because I feel like there are a lot of similarities between the two sets of guys despite playing different positions, and I would have chosen Wiggins to answer both questions above.

I like where you are going with this, and it might bring a lot more clarity to the discusssion. I was a wiggins fan over parker, and surprisingly I believe Cam was really high on Parker. Funny how we went opposite directions with the wings.

My biggest fear with Okafor is his FT shooting, but playing good PnR is something that can be taught. For all the touting on Towns D, he doesn't seem to be much playing man to man down low, and that is something that Okafor has the base to do well. I also think you can turn any player into a passable defender in one season, whereas becoming a dominant scorer takes several years if ever.

...except you can't. Enes Kanter has never been a passable defender. Same with Kevin Martin. Same with Amare Stoudemire. Same with Andrea Bargnani. Same with.....you get my point.

You can certainly hide offensively gifted players on defense if you have 3 or 4 other defensive studs out there, but there are some guys who are always a liability defensively. Center happens to be one of those positions that is tough to hide defensively, although it can be done (Charlotte has done a great job surrounding Al Jefferson with outstanding perimeter defenders - too bad they can't shoot!).

Okafor certainly has the physical gifts to be a solid defender. So did all those other guys I mentioned. He's been in the habit of playing soft defense for the better part of the last decade because he was so important on offense, his coaches needed him to avoid fouling. That passivity will be a very tough habit to break.

I view Towns as sort of a bigger (and potentially better) version of Al Horford - a true two-way player that won't go off for 25PPG, but is a main cog both on offense and defense.

Yes you can!

All the guys you pointed to are bad on D because they don't give the effort. That is fixable. Melo has some of the greatest defensive instincts I have seen in a player, but due to his laziness, he is a bad defender. He doesn't have to be, but he chooses not to put in the work.

I am not sure how we are legitimately going back a decade on a 19 year old who most first heard of when he was 17, but you state passivity is a hard habit to break, but he isn't passive on offense so I don't see a problem with that. For all we know, Okafor is having to make an effort to be passive.

Towns hasn't shown me anywhere near the aggressiveness of Horford to make that comparison which is one of my concerns with Towns. If you are saying they both do a lot well, that I would agree with. You do need to account for Towns fouling though when comparing him to Okafor's "passivity".

It's amazing how much better guys get without playing a game.

[Q12543 [enjin:6621299]]

SJM - All the guys you pointed to are bad on D because they don't give the effort. That is fixable. Melo has some of the greatest defensive instincts I have seen in a player, but due to his laziness, he is a bad defender. He doesn't have to be, but he chooses not to put in the work.

If it's so fixable, than why hasn't it been fixed yet with all these guys? Effort is a skill too. But it's not just effort - it's bad habits and bad technique. If it was only so easy.....

SJM - I am not sure how we are legitimately going back a decade on a 19 year old who most first heard of when he was 17, but you state passivity is a hard habit to break, but he isn't passive on offense so I don't see a problem with that. For all we know, Okafor is having to make an effort to be passive.

Because Okafor has been a dominant offensive big man (or big kid) since he practically started playing the game. He's always had to keep out of foul trouble because of his value on offense. It's led to some engrained habits that I think will be hard to break.

SJM - Towns hasn't shown me anywhere near the aggressiveness of Horford to make that comparison which is one of my concerns with Towns. If you are saying they both do a lot well, that I would agree with. You do need to account for Towns fouling though when comparing him to Okafor's "passivity".

Yes, both do a lot well. I'm also not sure how Towns can achieve such a good rebound rate, block rate, and yes, even foul rate, without being aggressive. He was a better shotblocker and rebounder as a college freshman than Horford was as a freshman or sophomore.

SJM - It's amazing how much better guys get without playing a game.

They just got done playing an entire college season.

[AbeVigodaLive]

I agree his footwork in a phone booth is excellent, but if his lateral movement is currently a negative, is the net effect still positive? A guy with footwork like his can learn to apply the same principles to other areas on the floor, and he will be able to make up for some athleticism deficiencies on the defensive end by learning to not waste motions or steps, but I don't think it will be to the degree necessary for a top-notch defense.

I disagree though about the gap in athleticism. I don't ever see Okafor doing the things Towns can in his most recent DX video, but it doesn't mean that it will translate to the NBA level to the same degree. None of their skills are easily translatable. I just feel like looking at the two players Towns is more well-rounded and his athleticism tips the scales.

I never saw Towns do the things Okafor can do in game footage. I will always be hesitant of a video of a solo workout tipping the scales for me. I am sure there is video of rubio hitting 20 jumpers in a row somewhere. These things are sales pitches. Ultimately this is a great debate and will be settled 5-10 years from know if they both stay healthy. I go Okafor and know I am in the minority, but the reasons for leaning that way are far from crazy and based on a larger data set based on his playing time and feature as the central big on his team.

There is. I remember seeing footage from a Wolves scrimmage last offseason as they hyped up Rubio's "new and improved" shot.

[thedoper]

Hard to claim where Towns fits in the legacy of NCAA bigs based on extrapolating his stats. The majority of this year he was a feature in the 2nd unit and when on the first unit was basically an off the ball help defender. I recognize that he came on later in the year and his PT went up. But I don't think you can simply use his per minute production and say that will translate to every context.

That being said think KAT is aggressive and has a great fire to his game and am excited to see how that translates to the NBA. I am just not willing to extrapolate his stats to 36 minutes and use that as the firm definition of his statistical value, or to use that stats to explain what KAT does better than Okafor.

[Monster]

SJM - All the guys you pointed to are bad on D because they don't give the effort. That is fixable. Melo has some of the greatest defensive instincts I have seen in a player, but due to his laziness, he is a bad defender. He doesn't have to be, but he chooses not to put in the work.

If it's so fixable, than why hasn't it been fixed yet with all these guys? Effort is a skill too. But it's not just effort - it's bad habits and bad technique. If it was only so easy.....

SJM - I am not sure how we are legitimately going back a decade on a 19 year old who most first heard of when he was 17, but you state passivity is a hard habit to break, but he isn't passive on offense so I don't see a problem with that. For all we know, Okafor is having to make an effort to be passive.

Because Okafor has been a dominant offensive big man (or big kid) since he practically started playing the game. He's always had to keep out of foul trouble because of his value on offense. It's led to some engrained habits that I think will be hard to break.

SJM - Towns hasn't shown me anywhere near the aggressiveness of Horford to make that comparison which is one of my concerns with Towns. If you are saying they both do a lot well, that I would agree with. You do need to account for Towns fouling though when comparing him to Okafor's "passivity".

Yes, both do a lot well. I'm also not sure how Towns can achieve such a good rebound rate, block rate, and yes, even foul rate, without being aggressive. He was a better shotblocker and rebounder as a college freshman than Horford was as a freshman or sophomore.

SJM - It's amazing how much better guys get without playing a game.

They just got done playing an entire college season.

We all know we are being hard on Okafor to a certain extent but just as Q said playing hard is a skill it seems like sometimes we forget that playing defense is an actual talent also. Some guys are basically drafted at some point just for that talent alone. Some guy obviously just don't have that talent. Martin is a perfect example of this. Sure he is skinny and offensively gifted but I have never really gotten the idea he just flat out doesn't care. Some guys can't handle the basketball some can't shoot some big guys have no post game and some guys don't have the ability to play defense. It's too early to say Okafor is like some of the other guys Q mentioned that seem to never have turned into good or even passable defenders but we are making projections and what I really don't like about Okafor is his lack of interest in playing physical on either end. I think Okafor can be solid but the reality is he is a long way to a certain extent to brig as effective as Pek who we compare him to as some sort of reasonable defensive floor.

[mjs34]

I read that the lakers and wolves will lead of Summer league. May get a chance to see the two bigs square off shortly.

[Camden [enjin:6601484]]

Hard to claim where Towns fits in the legacy of NCAA bigs based on extrapolating his stats. The majority of this year he was a feature in the 2nd unit and when on the first unit was basically an off the ball help defender. I recognize that he came on later in the year and his PT went up. But I don't think you can simply use his per minute production and say that will translate to every context.

That being said think KAT is aggressive and has a great fire to his game and am excited to see how that translates to the NBA. I am just not willing to extrapolate his stats to 36 minutes and use that as the firm definition of his statistical value, or to use that stats to explain what KAT does better than Okafor.

Majority of the season he was the first option offensively on a team that had bad guard play and zero spacing besides Booker. He just didn't have 30+ minutes like Okafor, Kaminsky and other highly-productive prospects. I'm not sure what Kentucky season you watched, if you watched any at all. According to you, he was just a defending/rebounding big and that was it last year. That's just false.

[Phenom]

Not sure if this was posted yet but AP Kraw zin ski was on with Bump yesterday and said Towns is the choice and he doesnt see a scenario where that will change. His info is as good as anyones. I voted for Towns in this poll btw.

[60WinTim]

Not sure if this was posted yet but AP Kraw zin ski was on with Bump yesterday and said Towns is the choice and he doesnt see a scenario where that will change. His info is as good as anyones. I voted for Towns in this poll btw.

I knew before I went on vacation that Towns was the choice. But not because of any inside info. There is just no comparison to what Towns can potentially give you compared to Okafor. No comparison. Athleticism. Personality and charisma. Versatility. Efficiency. Defense. Offense. Towns is the entire package. Your lucky to get the #1 pick. You do not pass on Towns. Even for Flip.