khans2k5 wrote:Also, in response to the Powers article. What quality free agent would come to Minnesota without Love? All getting cap space is going to do is pay unproven guys too much money in hopes they pan out, aka the Wolves with Darko, Beasley, JJ, etc. Money should mean nothing to a loser franchise like we have been because nobody is coming here for what they are actually worth once Love leaves. Cap space doesn't build contenders in small markets. Draft picks do. I'm tired of these arguments that him leaving for nothing is a good option if any top 10 picks are on the table for him. Guess what you'll have to do anyway if he leaves, draft well. Why not give yourself more picks to try to be successful than get less picks and have to hit a higher percentage to be successful? How would making the playoffs for one year and then Love leaving be better for the franchise than trying to setup the team to make consecutive playoffs long-term? That just seems like a cash grab and stupid move for any franchise to make. 1 year is not enough to make-up for 10 so why is that being seen as a viable option over trying to build something long-term that can payoff more than once?
About the drafting well part, do you really trust Flip to do that? If he doesn't do well at it, he's not gonna fire himself. And Glen sure as hell won't do it
Although I'm assuming the role of board pessimist (realist?) with respect to Kevin Love offers, I'm going to continue to defend Flip's drafting until he does it wrong. It seems to me that we sometimes confuse Flip with the lawyer/sportswriter with the mole on his face who didn't understand drafting. Flip understands the draft, and proved it by passing on CJ McCollum (who finished the year unable to get off of Portland's bench because of inconsistency on offense and matador defense), and instead taking Muhammad and Dieng. He nailed the 2013 draft, and that being my only draft experience with Flip, I expect him to do it again this year in a better draft.
I also don't agree with your assertion that Glen won't fire Flip if he drafts poorly. Glen fired Flip once before when he wasn't even performing that poorly, and fired Flip's predecessor for drafting poorly. Glen wants a winner here as badly as we do, and is not going to tolerate any bad moves by Flip. And Flip's piddly .5% ownership interest will have nothing to do with Glen's decision...it's only going to be about Flip's performance.
I voted Minnesota too. The way I see it the only trade that would be a significant upgrade from what we could get at the trade deadline is the Cleveland trade, and I just don't think that franchise has the desire to make that trade. We need the top tier of this draft to make it worth moving Love now. The only potential trade that can give us that is with Cleveland.
khans2k5 wrote:Also, in response to the Powers article. What quality free agent would come to Minnesota without Love? All getting cap space is going to do is pay unproven guys too much money in hopes they pan out, aka the Wolves with Darko, Beasley, JJ, etc. Money should mean nothing to a loser franchise like we have been because nobody is coming here for what they are actually worth once Love leaves. Cap space doesn't build contenders in small markets. Draft picks do. I'm tired of these arguments that him leaving for nothing is a good option if any top 10 picks are on the table for him. Guess what you'll have to do anyway if he leaves, draft well. Why not give yourself more picks to try to be successful than get less picks and have to hit a higher percentage to be successful? How would making the playoffs for one year and then Love leaving be better for the franchise than trying to setup the team to make consecutive playoffs long-term? That just seems like a cash grab and stupid move for any franchise to make. 1 year is not enough to make-up for 10 so why is that being seen as a viable option over trying to build something long-term that can payoff more than once?
About the drafting well part, do you really trust Flip to do that? If he doesn't do well at it, he's not gonna fire himself. And Glen sure as hell won't do it
Although I'm assuming the role of board pessimist (realist?) with respect to Kevin Love offers, I'm going to continue to defend Flip's drafting until he does it wrong. It seems to me that we sometimes confuse Flip with the lawyer/sportswriter with the mole on his face who didn't understand drafting. Flip understands the draft, and proved it by passing on CJ McCollum (who finished the year unable to get off of Portland's bench because of inconsistency on offense and matador defense), and instead taking Muhammad and Dieng. He nailed the 2013 draft, and that being my only draft experience with Flip, I expect him to do it again this year in a better draft.
I also don't agree with your assertion that Glen won't fire Flip if he drafts poorly. Glen fired Flip once before when he wasn't even performing that poorly, and fired Flip's predecessor for drafting poorly. Glen wants a winner here as badly as we do, and is not going to tolerate any bad moves by Flip. And Flip's piddly .5% ownership interest will have nothing to do with Glen's decision...it's only going to be about Flip's performance.
mchale fired flip. He held onto that guy for a decade despite being the laughingstock of GMs. Hell, lets say Glen does fire Flip one day. Does anything in his track record state that he'll find, or even work for, the right guy?
Also Flips draft looks so good because it's been soo long since the wolves have actually drafted a reliable rotation player. Whose the last one really? Brewer? MAYBE Craig Smith? Might have to go all the way back to Wally
So your solution to not drafting well is to give Flip less picks to work with to find rotation players? That is what keeping Love results in. Trading Love results in more picks to find rotation guys. It's a numbers game, so why is less picks more desirable if you think we can't draft well to begin with?
khans2k5 wrote:Also, in response to the Powers article. What quality free agent would come to Minnesota without Love? All getting cap space is going to do is pay unproven guys too much money in hopes they pan out, aka the Wolves with Darko, Beasley, JJ, etc. Money should mean nothing to a loser franchise like we have been because nobody is coming here for what they are actually worth once Love leaves. Cap space doesn't build contenders in small markets. Draft picks do. I'm tired of these arguments that him leaving for nothing is a good option if any top 10 picks are on the table for him. Guess what you'll have to do anyway if he leaves, draft well. Why not give yourself more picks to try to be successful than get less picks and have to hit a higher percentage to be successful? How would making the playoffs for one year and then Love leaving be better for the franchise than trying to setup the team to make consecutive playoffs long-term? That just seems like a cash grab and stupid move for any franchise to make. 1 year is not enough to make-up for 10 so why is that being seen as a viable option over trying to build something long-term that can payoff more than once?
This is the best post of the thread. Read it, learn it, love it. We HAVE to build through the draft. Past failures aside, it is our only chance to be a real contender. One season of playoffs is the stupidest reason yet to keep Love.
khans2k5 wrote:Also, in response to the Powers article. What quality free agent would come to Minnesota without Love? All getting cap space is going to do is pay unproven guys too much money in hopes they pan out, aka the Wolves with Darko, Beasley, JJ, etc. Money should mean nothing to a loser franchise like we have been because nobody is coming here for what they are actually worth once Love leaves. Cap space doesn't build contenders in small markets. Draft picks do. I'm tired of these arguments that him leaving for nothing is a good option if any top 10 picks are on the table for him. Guess what you'll have to do anyway if he leaves, draft well. Why not give yourself more picks to try to be successful than get less picks and have to hit a higher percentage to be successful? How would making the playoffs for one year and then Love leaving be better for the franchise than trying to setup the team to make consecutive playoffs long-term? That just seems like a cash grab and stupid move for any franchise to make. 1 year is not enough to make-up for 10 so why is that being seen as a viable option over trying to build something long-term that can payoff more than once?
This is the best post of the thread. Read it, learn it, love it. We HAVE to build through the draft. Past failures aside, it is our only chance to be a real contender. One season of playoffs is the stupidest reason yet to keep Love.
I believe we have to build through the draft as well, but taking a weak deal only extends our time as a mediocre team on the treadmill. Either we get a big haul (top 3 pick or Thompson), or we should keep Love. I am looking at this as a BUSINESS. If we keep Love, we can be competitive next season and maybe make the PO's. If not he can walk and we will suck for a season or two (at the minimum). Thankfully I will just take my BUSINESS elsewhere until the product improves.
That's how the players do it, isn't it?
And there is that bonus of screwing Love out of several million dollars in the process, and limiting the teams he can go to.
khans2k5 wrote:Also, in response to the Powers article. What quality free agent would come to Minnesota without Love? All getting cap space is going to do is pay unproven guys too much money in hopes they pan out, aka the Wolves with Darko, Beasley, JJ, etc. Money should mean nothing to a loser franchise like we have been because nobody is coming here for what they are actually worth once Love leaves. Cap space doesn't build contenders in small markets. Draft picks do. I'm tired of these arguments that him leaving for nothing is a good option if any top 10 picks are on the table for him. Guess what you'll have to do anyway if he leaves, draft well. Why not give yourself more picks to try to be successful than get less picks and have to hit a higher percentage to be successful? How would making the playoffs for one year and then Love leaving be better for the franchise than trying to setup the team to make consecutive playoffs long-term? That just seems like a cash grab and stupid move for any franchise to make. 1 year is not enough to make-up for 10 so why is that being seen as a viable option over trying to build something long-term that can payoff more than once?
This is the best post of the thread. Read it, learn it, love it. We HAVE to build through the draft. Past failures aside, it is our only chance to be a real contender. One season of playoffs is the stupidest reason yet to keep Love.
I don't disagree at all that having several good draft picks in this stacked draft would be the best option for us. I'm just not as optimistic as many on this board that Kevin Love is held in such high regard in the league as a potential franchise savior, that GMs of struggling teams will be willing to give up the very asset(s) that we are seeking.
Everyone wants to win, and every GM knows that Love is one of the few, or perhaps the only, "upper echelon" player that has not been able to lead his team to the playoffs. Yes, management needs to be held accountable for our woes, but so does our best player. I hope I am wrong about this, but I just don't see Cleveland willing to give up a shot at a guy like Wiggins for only one certain year of Love.
If you trade Love for a top 10 pick and filler, you get 1 top ten pick this year and then you already jumpstart the team to be bad enough to get another top 10 pick next year. If you get 8 and McLemore, that would be 3 top 10 picks in 2 years. If you get 6 and 17 and use 13 an 17 to move back into the top 10, that is also 3 top 10 picks in 2 years. Trying to tank for the top pick makes no sense for a franchise that hasn't won a lottery in 10 straight tries. Get top 10 picks and do your homework so they turn into somebody good. A good chunk of today's best players were taken outside the top 3, so you don't need a top 3 pick to get a star. If you keep Love, you get no top 10 pick this year or next year and start getting top 10 picks from then on. That's adding 2 years to the rebuilding process. If you believe we need to rebuild and can't re-sign Love, then you can't possibly think keeping Love is the best scenario because it delays the rebuild for 2 full drafts when it could start with this deep draft. Still believing Love will re-sign here is the only argument I can understand for why we should keep him at all and that is a pretty thin string in my mind because he is already out the door and just waiting to be traded. I don't think most of us would be happy making an already multi-millionaire make less millions of dollars at the sacrifice of building this team to win as soon as possible after he is gone.
I really like the GS trade/// If they could send,Love/JJ/Luc and get Lee/Clay and barnes thats awesome for wolves IMO.... Thats the one trade i see were we might be better after trade,,,Srarters,,Ricky//Clay/Barnes/Lee/Pek..Top bench players>> Martin/Brewer/Dieng,Truiaf/Shabazz/Bud.. Clay,Barnes and lee would fit way better with a pass 1st PG like Ricky then they do with curry....
going all in on draft picks never works. Having a team of all young players tend to lose a lot of games. That in turn creates a losing culture and no one develops properly. No reason why you can't get established players for Love AND build on draft picks
