What a Quandary

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

well if the bench could hold the leads once in a while, the wolves wouldn't of been in a lot of those situations.

I guess it's easy to generalize at the end of the season of all the close games without going into specifics.

Was it Loves fault that Martin got the ball stolen from him against the clippers that blew that game? Love had 45-19-6 in that game by the way

Was it Love's fault that gerald green hits a buzzer beater in the suns game?

Is it Love's fault that Rubio had like 2 FG in all 4th quarters for a majority of the season?

Is it Love's fault that Martin was one of the worst 4th quarter players in the league?

[The Rage Monster [enjin:8010341]]

Durant and Lebron are the only two who would be 1st fiddle to Love. Thats it. I'd of thought the 2nd fiddle argument would of been laughed out by now.

If Love is a teams top player that team will never become a true contender. He isn't a great leader, only plays on one end of the court, cherry picks for stats, and isn't a closer. He can be a very strong #2 but, as we've seen first hand, as a #1 his team won't be very successful.

This is such a tired myth and totally ignores the impact Kevin Love has while on the court. As has been stated numerous times in the past, the Wolves are a tale of two teams with Love on the floor versus off of the floor. If he didn't defend, couldn't lead, and only cared about stats, we wouldn't consistently win our match-ups with opposing teams while he was on the floor. Our starting lineup had the second best +/- in the league last year, with only Golden State ahead of us. That doesn't happen without Love.

No, he isn't Kevin Durant or Lebron James or even Chris Paul for that matter. But he's the best PF in the game and could be the best player on a contender, so long as he's surrounded by a strong supporting cast and has the right coach.

See Hicks post, he summed it up pretty well. You seem to mistake my criticism of Love as Love being worthless. He is a great player, there are so many aspects of his game that are fantastic but there are also many aspects that are not fantastic. I'll expand some on the criticisms. He's not a leader, even Rubio made comments on this. His offense is great but his defense is not, this is both lack of effort and physical limitations. Every game I've seen him play there has been at least one time where it could have left his man to contest and otherwise uncontested layup/dunk/etc but he instead boxes out his man hoping to grab a rebound.

You can point to +/- and winning match-ups but I'd say the most important thing to look at are the win/loss columns. Leading the league in certain areas and being the "best" PF is meaningless if what that player does doesn't lead to wins. Just look at the guys you mentioned, you replace Love with any of them and we'd have more wins. Again this isn't me saying Love is bad. In my opinion the difference between them is #1 guys is they will not only keep their teams in games but they will win you games on a consistent basis, Love on the other hand was only capable of keeping us in games.

[bleedspeed]

Love is not a closer. He can't get his anytime he wants. Watching Duncan dominate Ibaka down when Spurs need him most is an example of what Love is not. He needs to play with a closer. KG need Cassell. We have not given him that guy.

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Love is not a closer. He can't get his anytime he wants. Watching Duncan dominate Ibaka down when Spurs need him most is an example of what Love is not. He needs to play with a closer. KG need Cassell. We have not given him that guy.

So if Love is 4th in scoring, then only 3 other players in the league can get his anytime he wants.

Duncans a closer because he shut down a guy with a knee injury that was suppose to keep him out of the playoffs? How about Duncan blowing a bunny in game 7 of the finals? Is that a closer?

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

Durant and Lebron are the only two who would be 1st fiddle to Love. Thats it. I'd of thought the 2nd fiddle argument would of been laughed out by now.

If Love is a teams top player that team will never become a true contender. He isn't a great leader, only plays on one end of the court, cherry picks for stats, and isn't a closer. He can be a very strong #2 but, as we've seen first hand, as a #1 his team won't be very successful.

This is such a tired myth and totally ignores the impact Kevin Love has while on the court. As has been stated numerous times in the past, the Wolves are a tale of two teams with Love on the floor versus off of the floor. If he didn't defend, couldn't lead, and only cared about stats, we wouldn't consistently win our match-ups with opposing teams while he was on the floor. Our starting lineup had the second best +/- in the league last year, with only Golden State ahead of us. That doesn't happen without Love.

No, he isn't Kevin Durant or Lebron James or even Chris Paul for that matter. But he's the best PF in the game and could be the best player on a contender, so long as he's surrounded by a strong supporting cast and has the right coach.

See Hicks post, he summed it up pretty well. You seem to mistake my criticism of Love as Love being worthless. He is a great player, there are so many aspects of his game that are fantastic but there are also many aspects that are not fantastic. I'll expand some on the criticisms. He's not a leader, even Rubio made comments on this. His offense is great but his defense is not, this is both lack of effort and physical limitations. Every game I've seen him play there has been at least one time where it could have left his man to contest and otherwise uncontested layup/dunk/etc but he instead boxes out his man hoping to grab a rebound.

You can point to +/- and winning match-ups but I'd say the most important thing to look at are the win/loss columns. Leading the league in certain areas and being the "best" PF is meaningless if what that player does doesn't lead to wins. Just look at the guys you mentioned, you replace Love with any of them and we'd have more wins. Again this isn't me saying Love is bad. In my opinion the difference between them is #1 guys is they will not only keep their teams in games but they will win you games on a consistent basis, Love on the other hand was only capable of keeping us in games.

Love was the reason the wolves won 40 games. The wolves didn't win 50 games because the had a terrible bench, multiple players who can't make a jump shot, and a coach who admitted to being checked out

[thedoper]

http://www.awolfamongwolves.com/2014/06/roster-review-kevin-love-2/

This article handles the legitimate criticisms of Love well. He is an average to below average defender and because of position as a PF, style of play, and personality off the floor is challenged to be considered the leader of a great team. I believe he is a superstar though, but not without his shortcomings. But he is nowhere close to Lebron or Durant in terms of stardom in my mind though.

Finally something I would like to offer which has been left out of the discussion, was his horrible 4th quarter shooting stats all season (he only had one season bucking this trend):

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/loveke01/shooting/2014/

He took less shots proportionally in the 4th (rotations or was he more gunshy?). In the 4th he took a great ratio of 3s (bad shots), made a lower % of all his shots from every shooting metric. Which really again brings into question the value of his overall numbers. How many games did we lose in the 4th? Anyone that watched the games had to see Love chucking up shots late in the 4th when he was clearly tired and his lack of athleticism became more of a liability. Love was great within Adelman's system, but systems can go to shit in the 4th quarter when the pressure ramps up. That is the way basketball works. You need a unique kind of player to take over in those situations. I think that Love's stardom is part because of his unique talent and part of the rules and style of play now. Often those rules have gone out the window in the 4th quarter in the new NBA.

In all of this I want to keep Love. I think we have a better chance to win with him on our squad and I agree that we need more help. But I think that there is real merit to the criticism levied towards Love's play and his weaknesses. I don't think Rubio questioned his leadership for no reason. All our energy needs to go into swinging for the fences to put another star next to Love who strengths are complementary (D and 4th quarter scoring). Because we loose him we are in a rebuild, no matter how anyone wants to spin this draft.

[Coolbreeze44]

Let me settle this for you guys. This is a rare occasion when all parties contributing are making good and mostly accurate points. Each of you needs to accept the points the others are making, because just about all are valid.

- Love IS great
- Love is NOT a closer
- Our bench DID suck
- Love DOES need an allstar to be his wingman
- We DID win 40 games because of Love
- Love CANNOT carry his team to the playoffs on his back

[alexftbl8181 [enjin:6648741]]

When you run a crunch time lineup of Rubio-Martin-Brewer-Love-Pek and 2 of those players can't score a lick, and the other two shit their pants in the crunch time, do you really expect Love to be MJ in the 4th? Did you see how often he got double and triple teamed in the 4th last year?

[Lipoli390]

Let me settle this for you guys. This is a rare occasion when all parties contributing are making good and mostly accurate points. Each of you needs to accept the points the others are making, because just about all are valid.

- Love IS great
- Love is NOT a closer
- Our bench DID suck
- Love DOES need an allstar to be his wingman
- We DID win 40 games because of Love
- Love CANNOT carry his team to the playoffs on his back

Well said Cool! Overall, I agree with Doper's analysis and I think you captured the big picture in completely accurate and concise way.

[thedoper]

When you run a crunch time lineup of Rubio-Martin-Brewer-Love-Pek and 2 of those players can't score a lick, and the other two shit their pants in the crunch time, do you really expect Love to be MJ in the 4th? Did you see how often he got double and triple teamed in the 4th last year?

That was the same lineup that he lit it up with in the 1st and 3rd quarters last season. He shit his pants too. The stats don't lie. If he was triple teamed then he should have picked apart the other teams by providing layups for his teammates. Teams focus their d on the star at the end of games, that is always how it works. I expect someone who is a supposed top 3 player in the league to rise above that situation and adapt their game rather than taking worse shots and taking us out of the game.