apollotsg wrote:Woke up to this mess. I am disappointed, I was sold on Towns leaks on what was going to happen and Rosas comments along with all the players talking about the Timberwolves making noise. I disagree with everyone saying Russel would not have made the difference - I think he changes the franchise for the next 5 years in a significantly positive way. And then...
Rosa clearly had a deal with someone that was ready - rumor is it was Dal, who got involved with MIA and then our deal died. Then the MIA deal died - so is DAL messing with other teams? As of this morning, DAL is NOT getting Wiggins or any player from MIA. I know there is bad blood between DAL and HOU, could this be some strange messing with Rosa over HOU history stuff?
Prior to MIA or DAL or however the deal fell apart - Wiggins was told - I am assuming Rosa felt 100% that he was going to be moved - it didn't happen.
Towns has been telling the world and more than he had this done - his Instagram post shows he thought it was done - so what happened?
So this morning we wake up with the same team we had last week. But Towns and Rosa have to go look at Wiggins - not sure how that works - like someone else said, maybe he will be pissed - who cares he cant give less effort. I think Towns looks like the biggest loser here - he recruited his best friend, had a party in a suit with him after agreeing to the max with us and then partied it up until Roas made room - clearly, his agent had some backup plans. How does your BFF agree to a deal in the night and by morning you tell him sorry but you changed your mind?
Good post. Yep, I'd say that Rosas and Towns both look pretty bad here. I'm still not sure what happened and I'm interesting in learning exactly what went down. What we're hearing is that the Wolves had a cap-clearing deal in place but Russell changed his mind and decided to go to the Warriors. Hmm. Maybe that's true. If so, I'm glad we aren't stuck with him on a max deal. But I'm not convinced yet by that story line. I'm still wondering whether the Wolves failed to put a deal together. We should find out from Jon K or someone in the next few weeks. Meanwhile, Wolves fans can't help but be disappointed. And now Rosas, Towns and Saunders will have to deal with the aftermath -- Wiggins and Teague feeling unwanted, Towns embarrassed and dejected and Rosas rightly embarrassed.
As for Rosas, he's now 0-2 measured against his own goals. He wanted Garland, but couldn't get him. Then he wanted Russell and couldn't get him. In both cases, the whole world knew what Rosas wanted and in both cases he came close but fell short. Not a good start. Rosas said he would do things differently. Well, maybe he has or maybe he hasn't. But one thing for sure - the results are the same.
I agree lip. I dont 100% buy into the whole dlo change his mind after agreeing. That should be what the wolves are telling people to save face but the fact remains that whatever cap clearing move didnt happen. Seeing how fast free agency moved and how many deals were made, there doesnt seem to be a clear path in clearing cap space.
We would probably never know the true story for now. If I have to guess, rosas probably has deals lineup but those deals were mostly plan B and plan C for other teams. When those teams got their preferred scenarios, rosas was left with nothing. If I were a rival executive, il probably let rosas on a bit and show interest in wiggins or whatever to see what he is planning and how to move around it. That is most likely what happened in my view. Whatever deals rosas have lined up were secondary or 3rd options for other teams. Russel did not want to wait further judging by how fast things were going and how the wolves still didnt pull whatever trigger they were lining up.
I think dlo always wanted california, but if he couldn't get that, then being with kat was the next best thing.
With all the capspace being used up, i don't think he wanted to wait out the kawhi situation and possibly getting stuck in a situation he didnt want to be in.
Which is why I think it was important to get it done as soon as possible. If the deals were lined up already as rosa would want you to believe. Then it would have been reported and verbally agreed upon soon. Tha would make sense for both parties to protect their own interest. That is what smart businessman do. Lockup something you deem as good as soon as posible.
Look how miami dealt with butler. Now, that deal may have hit a roadblock because dallas might be backing out, but it still has a good chance of being ironed out and you do see a pathway. With us and dlo, there was nothing but speculation. That is why I believe whatever deal rosas lined up were most likely 2nd and 3rd option for another team. Russel and his camp did not want to wait for a 30-50% chance of a deal. Warriors jump in last minute and deal is closed.
In short we were never really certain we can pull off a deal and we are on the waitlist as a secondary to third option by another team. Warriors jump in with guaranteed of a deal pushing tru and end of story for us.
apollotsg wrote:Woke up to this mess. I am disappointed, I was sold on Towns leaks on what was going to happen and Rosas comments along with all the players talking about the Timberwolves making noise. I disagree with everyone saying Russel would not have made the difference - I think he changes the franchise for the next 5 years in a significantly positive way. And then...
Rosa clearly had a deal with someone that was ready - rumor is it was Dal, who got involved with MIA and then our deal died. Then the MIA deal died - so is DAL messing with other teams? As of this morning, DAL is NOT getting Wiggins or any player from MIA. I know there is bad blood between DAL and HOU, could this be some strange messing with Rosa over HOU history stuff?
Prior to MIA or DAL or however the deal fell apart - Wiggins was told - I am assuming Rosa felt 100% that he was going to be moved - it didn't happen.
Towns has been telling the world and more than he had this done - his Instagram post shows he thought it was done - so what happened?
So this morning we wake up with the same team we had last week. But Towns and Rosa have to go look at Wiggins - not sure how that works - like someone else said, maybe he will be pissed - who cares he cant give less effort. I think Towns looks like the biggest loser here - he recruited his best friend, had a party in a suit with him after agreeing to the max with us and then partied it up until Roas made room - clearly, his agent had some backup plans. How does your BFF agree to a deal in the night and by morning you tell him sorry but you changed your mind?
Good post. Yep, I'd say that Rosas and Towns both look pretty bad here. I'm still not sure what happened and I'm interesting in learning exactly what went down. What we're hearing is that the Wolves had a cap-clearing deal in place but Russell changed his mind and decided to go to the Warriors. Hmm. Maybe that's true. If so, I'm glad we aren't stuck with him on a max deal. But I'm not convinced yet by that story line. I'm still wondering whether the Wolves failed to put a deal together. We should find out from Jon K or someone in the next few weeks. Meanwhile, Wolves fans can't help but be disappointed. And now Rosas, Towns and Saunders will have to deal with the aftermath -- Wiggins and Teague feeling unwanted, Towns embarrassed and dejected and Rosas rightly embarrassed.
As for Rosas, he's now 0-2 measured against his own goals. He wanted Garland, but couldn't get him. Then he wanted Russell and couldn't get him. In both cases, the whole world knew what Rosas wanted and in both cases he came close but fell short. Not a good start. Rosas said he would do things differently. Well, maybe he has or maybe he hasn't. But one thing for sure - the results are the same.
This is somewhat in contrast to Thibs who in his 2nd full season on the job got a heck of a haul in that offseason. Butler was a HUGE get (even if you don't agree with the deal) and Teague and Taj were good free agent additions as players (price was high). The bad news was it didn't work out unless you could making the playoffs as success.
To me the difference is Rosas is known as a personal guy supposedly he and Towns have really hit it off. Ryan the coach is a guy that's known as a relationship guy with a connection to these players. The previous guys running this team was Thibs and Layden... Even if you aren't sure about Rosas it's pretty easy to see more potential of patching things up from this group. It's also possible they aren't done and a move of some sort can still be made. Thibs just told his guys to get back to work. I'd guess Rosas will have a more delicate way of going about it.
Monster - Excellent points about Rosas.
Signing Taj was a very good move in isolation. But in combination with the Gorgui contract 9 months earlier, it was not. I thought signing Teague to that 3-year $19 million per year deal was bad, considering there were PGs like Collison who could have been signed for considerably less. And I thought the Butler deal was ill-advised given where we were at, knowing Butler's age (6 year older than core young players) and history (both bad attitude and injuries). Thibodeau had already blown the draft in his first summer, taking Dunn instead of Murray or Hield. I won't go over the list again. You and I disagree on Butler being a huge get. I think it was the wrong get at the time that got even worse. It got us one playoff appearance, barely making the 8th seed thanks to Millsap's injury. At least Cassell and Spree got us one year in the Western Conference Finals. :)
So while I'm not sure about Rosas, I'm still hopeful. I'm not happy about ending up with Culver instead of Garland, but I'll give Rosas the benefit of the doubt for now about Culver, although it seems like Kris Dunn all over again. I love the Nowell pick in the 2nd round. And I like that Rosas is trying, but hasn't acted recklessly. As the Sixers and others have made clear, this is process. It's not all about one move or even one summer. Make smart draft picks, find young diamonds in the rough via free agency, develop those players, build relationships and create good chemistry. I'm ready to forget all about Garland and Russell, provided Rosas does smart things over time that make me forget.
The point wasn't whether Butler was the right guy I think we can agree on the value of adding him was actually massive. We know now it was a bad move. The point was Thibs basically got all he wanted. The outcome isn't leaving a good taste in our mouths.
I don't see Culver as Dunn 2.0. Why? Sure they are supposed do various stuff guys that have questions about shooting. The difference? Culver is 2 years younger. I also think you can live more with a wing that can't shoot as a starter than a PG. Dunn also had some injury questions about him too. I see the parallels but I also feel like Culver has a better chance at upside because of his age. I thought Dunn's passing was overrated. Culver's passing for a wing looks like a strength. Dunn's shot just looked less good than Culver also although both needed work. Culver just needs to smooth it out (no small thing) Dunn was/is just kinda funky. Dunn has been improving his shooting percentages slowly each year. He might end up being one of those 3 and D PGs that some contenders can use.
BloopOracle wrote:The team is ruined, KAT will ask for a trade in two years and the Wolves will be moved to Seattle
He couldn't successfully recruit his best friend to play basketball with him. Maybe getting rid of KAT isn't gonna be the worst thing we could do down the line.
Whoa. When was it kat's obligation to recruit free agents? You are missing the point here. We never had cap space to begin with! It was on rosas to make room for us to get dlo. Dlo gave us a meeting because of kat. It isnt towns fault for rosas not being able to work out a deal in time.
Enough of the deals were line up already excuse. If were lined up then it would have beed done as soon as possible. What is the incentive for us to wait?
My speculation is that we were always the backup plan of other teams. Maybe plan b or c. So whatever deal rosas lined up were not priority for another team. Why should russel wait for a 30-50% chance of a deal happening when the warriors come in late with guaranteed deal pushing tru with the money he wants? No one will feel sorry for dlo if we couldn't pull a trigger and he was left with having to take what is left in the market. So he took the guaranteed route with a contending team.
BloopOracle wrote:The team is ruined, KAT will ask for a trade in two years and the Wolves will be moved to Seattle
He couldn't successfully recruit his best friend to play basketball with him. Maybe getting rid of KAT isn't gonna be the worst thing we could do down the line.
Whoa. When was it kat's obligation to recruit free agents? You are missing the point here. We never had cap space to begin with! It was on rosas to make room for us to get dlo. Dlo gave us a meeting because of kat. It isnt towns fault for rosas not being able to work out a deal in time.
Enough of the deals were line up already excuse. If were lined up then it would have beed done as soon as possible. What is the incentive for us to wait?
My speculation is that we were always the backup plan of other teams. Maybe plan b or c. So whatever deal rosas lined up were not priority for another team. Why should russel wait for a 30-50% chance of a deal happening when the warriors come in late with guaranteed deal pushing tru with the money he wants? No one will feel sorry for dlo if we couldn't pull a trigger and he was left with having to take what is left in the market. So he took the guaranteed route with a contending team.
Do any research on what went down and you'd know you're just wrong. Everybody on Twitter is saying everything was done and D Lo at the end of the day chose them over us. Rosas isn't gonna announce and actually make a trade without Russell's commitment and he didn't get it at the end of the day. And yes KAT should take some responsibility on this because all the top players need to be able to recruit in this league. It's the whole reason KD went to GS and why he's now going to Brooklyn. If KAT can't recruit his own best friend successfully you can kiss any top tier FA's goodbye. Your speculation is contrary to all the reporting. I'd take Jon K's reporting over your speculation any day of the week.
BloopOracle wrote:The team is ruined, KAT will ask for a trade in two years and the Wolves will be moved to Seattle
He couldn't successfully recruit his best friend to play basketball with him. Maybe getting rid of KAT isn't gonna be the worst thing we could do down the line.
Whoa. When was it kat's obligation to recruit free agents? You are missing the point here. We never had cap space to begin with! It was on rosas to make room for us to get dlo. Dlo gave us a meeting because of kat. It isnt towns fault for rosas not being able to work out a deal in time.
Enough of the deals were line up already excuse. If were lined up then it would have beed done as soon as possible. What is the incentive for us to wait?
My speculation is that we were always the backup plan of other teams. Maybe plan b or c. So whatever deal rosas lined up were not priority for another team. Why should russel wait for a 30-50% chance of a deal happening when the warriors come in late with guaranteed deal pushing tru with the money he wants? No one will feel sorry for dlo if we couldn't pull a trigger and he was left with having to take what is left in the market. So he took the guaranteed route with a contending team.
Do any research on what went down and you'd know you're just wrong. Everybody on Twitter is saying everything was done and D Lo at the end of the day chose them over us. Rosas isn't gonna announce and actually make a trade without Russell's commitment and he didn't get it at the end of the day. And yes KAT should take some responsibility on this because all the top players need to be able to recruit in this league. It's the whole reason KD went to GS and why he's now going to Brooklyn. If KAT can't recruit his own best friend successfully you can kiss any top tier FA's goodbye. Your speculation is contrary to all the reporting. I'd take Jon K's reporting over your speculation any day of the week.
So if what is being said on twitter is true 100% then we never had a commitment from dlo and rosas was taken for a ride. Spin it anyway but it just wasnt a good look for rosas.
Also, blaming kat for this from your part look stupid. If it were that easy to recruit your best friend to play with you in the nba then we would have seen more superteams already. Durant went to the warriors and nets because they have guaranteed max money cap space to begin with! Money is more important than friendship in the Nba. Durant wont sign with the nets if they dont have a max slot no matter the amount of recruiting from kyrie. We dont have max money. Rosas didnt make the max slot available before he was seeking commitment from a player. A deal that we know nothing about is supposed to have been lined up. Okay
apollotsg wrote:Woke up to this mess. I am disappointed, I was sold on Towns leaks on what was going to happen and Rosas comments along with all the players talking about the Timberwolves making noise. I disagree with everyone saying Russel would not have made the difference - I think he changes the franchise for the next 5 years in a significantly positive way. And then...
Rosa clearly had a deal with someone that was ready - rumor is it was Dal, who got involved with MIA and then our deal died. Then the MIA deal died - so is DAL messing with other teams? As of this morning, DAL is NOT getting Wiggins or any player from MIA. I know there is bad blood between DAL and HOU, could this be some strange messing with Rosa over HOU history stuff?
Prior to MIA or DAL or however the deal fell apart - Wiggins was told - I am assuming Rosa felt 100% that he was going to be moved - it didn't happen.
Towns has been telling the world and more than he had this done - his Instagram post shows he thought it was done - so what happened?
So this morning we wake up with the same team we had last week. But Towns and Rosa have to go look at Wiggins - not sure how that works - like someone else said, maybe he will be pissed - who cares he cant give less effort. I think Towns looks like the biggest loser here - he recruited his best friend, had a party in a suit with him after agreeing to the max with us and then partied it up until Roas made room - clearly, his agent had some backup plans. How does your BFF agree to a deal in the night and by morning you tell him sorry but you changed your mind?
Good post. Yep, I'd say that Rosas and Towns both look pretty bad here. I'm still not sure what happened and I'm interesting in learning exactly what went down. What we're hearing is that the Wolves had a cap-clearing deal in place but Russell changed his mind and decided to go to the Warriors. Hmm. Maybe that's true. If so, I'm glad we aren't stuck with him on a max deal. But I'm not convinced yet by that story line. I'm still wondering whether the Wolves failed to put a deal together. We should find out from Jon K or someone in the next few weeks. Meanwhile, Wolves fans can't help but be disappointed. And now Rosas, Towns and Saunders will have to deal with the aftermath -- Wiggins and Teague feeling unwanted, Towns embarrassed and dejected and Rosas rightly embarrassed.
As for Rosas, he's now 0-2 measured against his own goals. He wanted Garland, but couldn't get him. Then he wanted Russell and couldn't get him. In both cases, the whole world knew what Rosas wanted and in both cases he came close but fell short. Not a good start. Rosas said he would do things differently. Well, maybe he has or maybe he hasn't. But one thing for sure - the results are the same.
This is somewhat in contrast to Thibs who in his 2nd full season on the job got a heck of a haul in that offseason. Butler was a HUGE get (even if you don't agree with the deal) and Teague and Taj were good free agent additions as players (price was high). The bad news was it didn't work out unless you could making the playoffs as success.
To me the difference is Rosas is known as a personal guy supposedly he and Towns have really hit it off. Ryan the coach is a guy that's known as a relationship guy with a connection to these players. The previous guys running this team was Thibs and Layden... Even if you aren't sure about Rosas it's pretty easy to see more potential of patching things up from this group. It's also possible they aren't done and a move of some sort can still be made. Thibs just told his guys to get back to work. I'd guess Rosas will have a more delicate way of going about it.
Monster - Excellent points about Rosas.
Signing Taj was a very good move in isolation. But in combination with the Gorgui contract 9 months earlier, it was not. I thought signing Teague to that 3-year $19 million per year deal was bad, considering there were PGs like Collison who could have been signed for considerably less. And I thought the Butler deal was ill-advised given where we were at, knowing Butler's age (6 year older than core young players) and history (both bad attitude and injuries). Thibodeau had already blown the draft in his first summer, taking Dunn instead of Murray or Hield. I won't go over the list again. You and I disagree on Butler being a huge get. I think it was the wrong get at the time that got even worse. It got us one playoff appearance, barely making the 8th seed thanks to Millsap's injury. At least Cassell and Spree got us one year in the Western Conference Finals. :)
So while I'm not sure about Rosas, I'm still hopeful. I'm not happy about ending up with Culver instead of Garland, but I'll give Rosas the benefit of the doubt for now about Culver, although it seems like Kris Dunn all over again. I love the Nowell pick in the 2nd round. And I like that Rosas is trying, but hasn't acted recklessly. As the Sixers and others have made clear, this is process. It's not all about one move or even one summer. Make smart draft picks, find young diamonds in the rough via free agency, develop those players, build relationships and create good chemistry. I'm ready to forget all about Garland and Russell, provided Rosas does smart things over time that make me forget.
The point wasn't whether Butler was the right guy I think we can agree on the value of adding him was actually massive. We know now it was a bad move. The point was Thibs basically got all he wanted. The outcome isn't leaving a good taste in our mouths.
I don't see Culver as Dunn 2.0. Why? Sure they are supposed do various stuff guys that have questions about shooting. The difference? Culver is 2 years younger. I also think you can live more with a wing that can't shoot as a starter than a PG. Dunn also had some injury questions about him too. I see the parallels but I also feel like Culver has a better chance at upside because of his age. I thought Dunn's passing was overrated. Culver's passing for a wing looks like a strength. Dunn's shot just looked less good than Culver also although both needed work. Culver just needs to smooth it out (no small thing) Dunn was/is just kinda funky. Dunn has been improving his shooting percentages slowly each year. He might end up being one of those 3 and D PGs that some contenders can use.
My point on Thibs is that you don't evaluate a PBO based on whether he gets what he wants. You evaluated him based on what he gets measured against what makes sense. I though the Butler deal made no sense in context.
As for Culver, I sure hope you're right. But I don't agree that shooting is less important for a wing than a PG. To the contrary, shooting/scoring is the most important offensive skill in a wing. A PG's scoring can be secondary if he's adept at orchestrating the offense and setting up his teammates. Also, take a look at the scouting videos of Culver. There's a very good one that zooms in on and critiques his shooting mechanics. It shows that Culver's shooting mechanics are really bad. Note that Culver not only shot a terrible 30% from behind the arc, but also hit only 70% of his free throws. He's not super long and he's not super quick. He's a good ballhandler, but doesn't have that 'ball-on-the-string" handle I recall Brandon Roy having. So I'm counting on the basketball accumen of Rosas and his front office/scouting team. And a number of respected basketball analysts thought highly of Culver. So we'll see. But I have a bad feeling about this pick.
Winning is still the best recruitment. It's not like any of the other big names went to go play with their buddies on bad teams. They went to teams that are set up to win. Won't be long now and Town will be asking for his walking papers
Kat and Russel had a helicopter ride together planned out for that evening after the deal was official, Towns himself thought it was done. We were not a backup, DLO didn't even have a meeting with GS.
I am certain the Dal deal was set but Dal would not turn in the paperwork or dropped at the last minute - and then they did the same dam thing to Mia. I recall them doing some spotting FA stuff before as well in the past. I cant find fault in Rosa if he did have a deal with Dal and they played games.
I am speculating that Rosa then spent the next several hours trying to find another suiter and could not without a hefty price tag which should be the only positive spin out of the whole saga.
Frankly - I am not sure how GS gets the deal framework in place without Russel involved - or maybe it is pure assuming on their part that he will come if they have a max deal and trade worked out - I guess he doesnt even need to be involved other then agreeing to it once its officially presented.
I would like to hear directly from Kat on this whole thing
BloopOracle wrote:The team is ruined, KAT will ask for a trade in two years and the Wolves will be moved to Seattle
He couldn't successfully recruit his best friend to play basketball with him. Maybe getting rid of KAT isn't gonna be the worst thing we could do down the line.
Whoa. When was it kat's obligation to recruit free agents? You are missing the point here. We never had cap space to begin with! It was on rosas to make room for us to get dlo. Dlo gave us a meeting because of kat. It isnt towns fault for rosas not being able to work out a deal in time.
Enough of the deals were line up already excuse. If were lined up then it would have beed done as soon as possible. What is the incentive for us to wait?
My speculation is that we were always the backup plan of other teams. Maybe plan b or c. So whatever deal rosas lined up were not priority for another team. Why should russel wait for a 30-50% chance of a deal happening when the warriors come in late with guaranteed deal pushing tru with the money he wants? No one will feel sorry for dlo if we couldn't pull a trigger and he was left with having to take what is left in the market. So he took the guaranteed route with a contending team.
Do any research on what went down and you'd know you're just wrong. Everybody on Twitter is saying everything was done and D Lo at the end of the day chose them over us. Rosas isn't gonna announce and actually make a trade without Russell's commitment and he didn't get it at the end of the day. And yes KAT should take some responsibility on this because all the top players need to be able to recruit in this league. It's the whole reason KD went to GS and why he's now going to Brooklyn. If KAT can't recruit his own best friend successfully you can kiss any top tier FA's goodbye. Your speculation is contrary to all the reporting. I'd take Jon K's reporting over your speculation any day of the week.
So if what is being said on twitter is true 100% then we never had a commitment from dlo and rosas was taken for a ride. Spin it anyway but it just wasnt a good look for rosas.
Also, blaming kat for this from your part look stupid. If it were that easy to recruit your best friend to play with you in the nba then we would have seen more superteams already. Durant went to the warriors and nets because they have guaranteed max money cap space to begin with! Money is more important than friendship in the Nba. Durant wont sign with the nets if they dont have a max slot no matter the amount of recruiting from kyrie. We dont have max money. Rosas didnt make the max slot available before he was seeking commitment from a player. A deal that we know nothing about.
What are you even talking about with recruiting? Do you follow the NBA at all? It literally has been team up culture for the last decade. USA basketball has been the most important recruiting tool of the last 15 years. Lebron went to Miami to play with his friends Wade and Bosh. KD and Kyrie were hanging out all weekend long at All-Star weekend talking about this move. There will always be teams who have or can make multiple max slots. You just saw multiple teams do it this summer alone. Durant would have joined Kyrie on the Knicks if the Nets didn't have the space. PG stayed in OKC because of Westbrook. How do you think Clutch AD ended up forcing his way to Clutch Lebron in LA? Do you think it's a coincidence Kyrie joined Roc nation with KD on his way to Brooklyn when KD was like the second guy to sign with them? Players are teaming up left and right and KAT has no responsibility in not being able to recruit his "brother" to play with him here? Get outta here.
And in the latest athletic piece, we didn't have a full commitment from Russell after the meeting hence why we didn't make any trades to clear the space. You don't make those deals without a commitment from him.
